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oly oly is offline
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Question Brake Cooling vs Racing Brake Pads: Which one first?

My brakes are fading after the first few DE laps and I'm looking for a prudent incremental solution. The car is all Porsche original including the pads and I'm using ATE Super Blue (or Gold) fluid. Also, I use a pressure bleeder just before the DEs and bleed until there is no air coming out.

I thought that the generally accepted next steps were: 1. racing pads then 2. brake cooling. But the Rennsport site says cooling first then pads (http://www.rennsportsystems.com/2c.html). Either solution will cost about the same since I'll go with either Performance Friction 97 Pads or a ~$300 brake cooling kit.

So what do you think?
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:11 PM
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Absolutely cooling first. I race with people who use factory brakes and pads. $300 for a cooling kit seems really high. Just get the 964 air deflectors and attach them to the A-arms. I understand they are extremely effective. (remove the dust shields first)
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Old 02-13-2009, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZOA NOM View Post
Absolutely cooling first. I race with people who use factory brakes and pads. $300 for a cooling kit seems really high. Just get the 964 air deflectors and attach them to the A-arms. I understand they are extremely effective. (remove the dust shields first)

I agree cooling first. If you can lock the brakes with the calipers you have then you just need to cool off the rotors. There is a cooling set up that replaces the dust shield on the front with a dust shield that has a hose attachment to route air from the front to the rotors. I would do that first...
Old 02-13-2009, 07:10 PM
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x2

I run the 993 air deflectors, block off plates and no dust shields. PFC-97 pads on stock rotors. Motul 600 fluid bled/flushed often.

No probs at full-on DE events.

The only weakness is longevity, I get about 10 track days out of a set of pads and rotors. Also, the outer dust boot on the caliper burns off very quickly, I don't even bother to install it any more. And I change the piston seals each time I change pads and rotors.
Old 02-13-2009, 07:14 PM
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I'd switch fluids too.....Motul RBF 600 doesn't break the bank and has some higher temperature performance.
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Old 02-13-2009, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aston@ultrasw.c View Post
And I change the piston seals each time I change pads and rotors.

Hmmm...not a bad idea
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Old 02-14-2009, 01:53 AM
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oly oly is offline
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Okay, thanks everybody!
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:00 AM
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You'll want performance pads no matter what you do. The street pads will not last a whole day of track running if you are really driving the car. For new drivers who still want good street behavior, I always recommend Ferodo DS2500 (make sure they are DS2500, not a lesser street compound). The DS2500's are not expensive ($140 a set shipped or so) and they work well on and off the track with great initial bite. Later on when you get faster, you'll want something like a Performance Friction or Padgid pad. I like the PF97's, and I run them on the street w/ no issues.


The Ate Blue/Gold fluid is a good start, but you'll soon need cooling as you get faster. And then a move up to Motul 600 DOT4 or the new (new to me anyhow) DOT5.1.

The piston dust boots on the calipers get crispy after the first track day. I'd change those, but I don't think you need to change the piston seals. It's an overkill to rebuld the calipers with every set of pads.
Old 02-14-2009, 03:06 AM
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On a 1000kg car with Pagid Orange pads on stock M and A calipers I was still boiling off ATE Blue and Gold. Now going to Don's carbon fiber ducts and Pelican's (Smart's) deflection plates fed through 3" Shaw RSR spoiler. Just a point of reference.

Try some cooling first. Changing to full race pads will not be ideal on the street, which is where I assume you spend most of your time from the fact you are talking about DE. Race pads on the street are spooky at best.

Souk's recommendation is a good one, as are the PFC97s from what I hear though I didnt like them on my S calipers on the 71.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:53 AM
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Replace fluid Ate Blue or Gold or a good quality race fluid (Motul or similar with a very high boiling point). Get a good brake cooling setup, no matter which pads you use (street or track) you'll want it for any serious driving.

FYI, track pads are noisy and some are very sensitive to temps and won't work good for street conditions unless warmed up.

I prefer a proper cooling setup plumbed to the rotor hub (pretty sure Pelican sells a great set up).

If you will be doing performance driving, you want to go over the brake system (all systems actually ).
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:29 AM
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The race only pads, i would not use on the street. But there has been posts about Ferodo DS2500s and PF 97's being bad or noisey for the street. Just to add positive info...I have gone through several sets of both types on the track and street, and there are no issues with these for street use.
Old 02-14-2009, 04:34 AM
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I'd also put Porterfield R4-S in the great dual-use compound category.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:07 AM
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You don't tell us too much about the car.... and the tracks where you drive.

I suggest going old school for a sequence of steps as this type of thing has been going on since the 80's....

Good fluid-- you have that in the ATE. If you need some Motul or something like that, you will know after the other steps. By the way, in a 3000 pound car with 360 bhp and huge tires, my needs evolved to Motul, then I "stepped back" to ATE with better results. Motul is not a cure all.

Simple air flow improvements. Before there was the internet, there was the local PCA and the Pano and Up Fixen'. The first step was always removing the original backing plates. The next step was ducting. You can go with the Porsche a-arm deflector plastic pieces like those mentioned here... they may or may not be enough. But they are pretty cheap and easy to install. I might check with local folks with similar cars driving on the same tracks to see if this worked for them. PCA can be a good resource to find such local people. I'd skip this step if it didn't work for someone under similar circumstances.

More involved air flow improvements. Used to be the Holbert Cool Brake... NLA. Nowadays its the NERP kit sold by Pelican, or the AJ USA kit sold by AJ USA or SmartRacing Products. If you have to go even further, get the hub air deflectors.

As for brake pads, in the old days it was a cheap choice like Metalmasters or a slightly more expensive choice like Ferodos (often purchased from Automotion-- remember them? Sprung out of Garretson's... 935 Porsche factory team for a while...). Anyway, there are many more choices nowadays... I'd use a local reference... same specs of car, same kinds of tracks. And I'd use racing type pads right away. They don't have to be expensive. If you "overshoot" the solution, you can always "step back" to Jurid/Textar type pads.

That last bit is most vital. I have been corresponding about these cars on the internet since the early 90's. I feel it is the worst place for this type of advice because the devil is in the details... what is the car, where is it driven, et cetera. Find some folks near where you live and drive and see what they do.

These cars have been used like this for decades... no need to reinvent the wheel.

- Mike
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:20 AM
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FWIW- I will boil the ATE Super Blue in 5 laps running stock calipers, HT-10 Hawk pads and brake cooling. Motul 600 (as others have mentioned) is almost a must for track use. All last season I ran the HT-10, Motul, and the 993 control arm scoops and rarely had an issue. There were some 95 degree days where my car ran back to back instructor run groups with no cool down and I was still good.

I'll offer one additional thought- late braking. I've found that it's the intermediate drivers I instruct that have the issues with brake boiling because they're now going faster but get on the brakes too soon for a turn and carry the brakes longer, building up heat, and reducing cool down time. And this is a free way to help the brakes.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:29 AM
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I appreciate all the advice, so thanks again.

I'm in the green run group for DEs. I'll be on tracks in the Northeast, mostly at Loudon and hopefully at Tremblant, Limerock, and Watkins Glen too. I also want to do auto crossing. I'm checking with local PCA members to see what they use.

I will go with the Motul 600. So my only questions right now are which cooling method I should use;
1. 993 Deflectors (993-341-083-00-OEM & 993-341-084-00-OEM) OR
2. Ducted kit (and then decide between NERP(PEL-PBSCBPAZK) or AJUSA? (911-BCRK-001) or somebody elses)
3. Add or not add SRP Air Deflection Plates (PEL-AD-1000D)

I'll appreciate any other advice that you are willing to give me. But I see plenty of other posts on the subject so I'll be reading them anyway.
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Old 02-14-2009, 09:43 AM
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Brake cooling duct work

Art, some of us have been supplying these parts for a number of years. I do have a set of the 911 backing plates and a set of the scoops on the shelf (I won't be making any more till spring - when temps get back above 60 again).

911 Backing plates $110 pair, shipped in the cont. US.
Scoops $78 pair, shipped in the cont. US.





The hose is available from Pegasus racing.

If you're inclined to do it yourself this an option.

For anyone running hose from the front valence/bumper look at the manifolds to get the air, hose, wheel and "A" arm onto the same space with minimum conflict. Take a look, some folks have done outstanding air movement engineering and posted here on Pelican.

Bob
Old 02-14-2009, 11:22 AM
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oly oly is offline
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Bob,

Do you have a picture of your parts installed on a 1985 911 Carrera or something comparable?
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:24 AM
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JMO, but do the cheap easy stuff first, if that doesn't work for you then spend some $.
When I had stock brakes on my C3 I found that good fluid and pads was enough.

Motul RBF-600 is certainly an excellent choice
I like Pagid pads RS19(yellow) are even usable on the street
993 scoops are a really cheap & durable solution to get air to the rotors.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:36 AM
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Here we go again. Saying Motul is a must is just not correct. Try a 195 pound 911 with a 3.8 twin turbo making 700 bhp, driven to work each day in the Nevada mountains (during summer months). 930 front calipers and rotors, a AJUSA/NERP style brake cooling set up, and ATE Super Blue, only bled once per season. Front running race car that beats even modified, PCA GTA-classed cars with pro drivers. So what you really need really just depends...

Yes, Ate Blue. Now the Motul may not be any more expensive or more difficult to get. In my experience many years ago, it was both harder to get and more expensive... and it needed to be changed out very frequently. So for me back then there were trade-offs... time, money, convenience. When those things are important, often the best answers are to copy a solution from an informed source that has dealt with the same or very similar variables. And here the car's configuration and the tracks run are important variables. That's why local folks can be such a great resource.

I should not have said that Holbert's stuff was NLA. It appears that the parts the Fleming makes and sells are effectively the same thing. Time tested.... hard to do better than that.

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Old 02-14-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahler9th View Post
Here we go again. Saying Motul is a must is just not correct. Try a 195 pound 911 with a 3.8 twin turbo making 700 bhp, driven to work each day in the Nevada mountains (during summer months). 930 front calipers and rotors, a AJUSA/NERP style brake cooling set up, and ATE Super Blue, only bled once per season. Front running race car that beats even modified, PCA GTA-classed cars with pro drivers. So what you really need really just depends...
yes, here we go again. You are entitled to your opinion but there are plenty of other well informed opinions around here too. You seem to feel that only yourself and a select few others(also selected by you) have anything informative to say.


comparing a street driven car w/ 930 brakes to a track driven 911 w/ stock is pure nonsense. I've bitten my tongue for years about your BS and sniping. It's time that you grew up. If you have something to contribute. Do so. Otherwise take your snide comments elsewhere.

I don't see where anyone said that Motul is a must, It is one of many good choices.

and sure there are lots of us w/ BBK that can use ATE all day, all season long on track or street. Unfortunately there are many w/o a BBK that need all the help that their brakes can get.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:58 AM
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