Gunter: Don't forget his car was also missing gaskets on the intake runners.

I'm pretty sure that by fixing both the hole and the intake runners his car will run again.

Attention All Somatic Realistic Optimists:

Some of the engine data has been published, but I'll try to assemble everything I have tomorrow and put it here. I don't know if all data is going to be available. This is the best time in recent memory to do this since I have things apart.

I'll try to be brief as I wouldn't want to take valuable web space away from the latest posting of such technical issues as "Hey, look how funny a 911 looks when it is shortened by a photo program!" or "I wonder how big I can get my head in a shot taken in front of my car?" ;)

Actually, Gunter and others, I DO appreciate the input, and if posting some engine data helps move things along, then I'll be glad to do it.

You'll be fine........
 

Paul,

Correct the air leak/s and install a working WUR, you'll be in the road in two weeks. A JB Weld will save your aluminum line from taking unmetered air and don't forget the gasket/s (just kidding).

Your WUR could be tested without running the car. Shoot for 1.5 bar (cold) to 3.5 bar (warm) and stop messing the air mixture. A properly set air mixture (mechanical) will be good and will stay good for a very long time unless you have unmetered air going into the system. Keep us posted of the progress and wish you the best.

Tony

Thanks, Tony. I've got new gaskets, JB Weld, Simple green and vac hose ready to go. Porsche_Monkey will probably be coming by Tues morning, so if all goes well, I should be back in business well before 2 weeks.

I'm glad we found that both air leak in the line and the missing gaskets. At least they seem likely candidates. We'll know soon enough.

Mark87930 has agreed to loan me his AF meter again, so I can set that mixture screw and forget it!

I don't know about that Gunter, though. He wants to know an awful lot about what's in my engine compartment. It's kinda scary. Wonder what he's thinking...

Paul,

Once you have everything installed and repaired I'd find someone with a smoke machine just to be certain. Does not cost much to smoke the intake (about $40.00) here in RI. Well worth the money.

No intake gaskets? Wow :eek: That is scary.
All tests for AFR were NFG; scrap all pages and start new. :D

I am thinking like an Engineer. :)

Like: are the CIS parts compatible to each other?
To know what mods/changes have been made would of helped to find some solutions.

What's the mistery? :confused:

The numbers of FD, WUR, AAR, AAV and distributor are right on the parts and tell the story without guessing.
And the engine type is easily found.

The length of all your threads could have been cut drastically by posting clearly what kind of mix-match you have to avoid unnecessary guesswork.
Of course, nobody could have guessed about the missing gaskets.

So, what exactly do you have?
Engine? (Type)
Crank? (Stroke)
P/C's? (95mm or 98mm?)
FD?
WUR?
AAR?
AAV?
Distributor?

I remember asking you the above a long time ago without success.

The board is here to help people with problems and to learn about solutions. That includes learning about possible improvements and modifications. No need for secrecy. SmileWavy

I think it's funny looking at your avatar and thinking that it's actually Rocky the Flying Squirrel saying this about the grumpy old bird...

But I imagine he is thinking a lot like the rest of us... HTF is the F'n Squirrel gonna get all the crap to work?

I have faith and hope, I think the manifold gaskets alone will work miracles. SmileWavy

Gunter,

Sorry if it seemed like I was being secretive, or otherwise ignoring you. Ii was merely my weary old bones being reluctant to go out into my freezing garage over the winter! That and one other thing which I'll get to. Here's the data I have as of now:

Engine: 6403966, so 80SC 3.0L US/Canada
AAR: 0289140218, 80-83SC
WUR: 1438140045, 78/79 SC
Fuel Diz: 0438100031: 78/79 SC
Distrib: 0231184001: 74-77S c/w revised gear to reverse rotation to match SC spec

I haven't found a number for the AAV yet.

Now the hard/interesting(?) part: The engine was rebuilt about 20 yr ago by Rudy Bartling. Google him. He was racing Porsches @ Mosport in the early 60s! He is 73 now and a little shaky on the phone, so I have deputized a good friend of his to ask about the Ps & Cs, crank, and CR. I'll get these numbers up as soon as I get them.

I have found another likely vac leak. There is a port on the back of the TB adjacent to the decel valve that was open; not capped or w/ a line attached. I'll post a pic later. I wanted to use the PP parts diagram but the link to PET isn't currently working.

snbush67,

You are right in that I have a mongrel system. But it worked flawlessly for me for over 15 years. It was only recently that I had the problems I'm currently working on.

Paul,

Your car is going to run great after you finish fixing those leaks. Keep pressing on.

Cheers,
Craig

Paul,

Please know that I am faithfully subscribed to your threads, often times (back when I had CIS) when I was experiencing CIS issues, your threads would come up in my search for help. It is because of you I often didn't have to ask the question again. So I personally have gained from your quest and applaud your continued efforts.

I am hoping as much as anyone that when you get this thing put back together that it gives you the mongrel ride of your life.

Good Luck,

Shane

You'll be back on the road soon........
 

Paul,

While you are fortunate to locate the major cause of your problem/s, I would take this opportunity to do the job well. If I were you, I would consider listening and evaluating the suggestions made by others. Some make sense and some are doubtful but give them some thoughts. Many times we believe we know all but my personal experience says I was wrong several times too often.

As you have experienced lately, looking for this mysterious air leak is not that easy or convenient. I hope you found all the sources. But what would you do if you missed the others after putting back all the parts together? What would you have done differently if you have to start all over again?

If I were in your shoes, I'll pull the engine out. Inspect thoroughly and install the CIS components back. Pressure test the whole system (10-15 psi), test with soapy water, and observe any pressure drop. Having an engine test stand is a great advantage and convenience. Whatever you decide to do, we all wish you well and success. BTW, are you enjoying prolonging this agony of yours (just kidding)???

Tony

Going by the numbers, the parts are compatible but makes me wonder who installed the intake runners without gaskets?
And running great without them for 15 years? That's pretty good.

Agree that you'd want the details about P/C's, CR etc. for future use.
Also, find out what cams you have. SC or?
You'd need that should you ever need to time the cams.

Vacuum leaks out of the way, it should humm. :)

Of course, any unsuspecting Mechanic would be very puzzled about the ignition wires coming from a distributor that now runs cw in a 3.0. :D

ERROR! ERROR! ERROR!

I've found the intake runner gaskets! When Porsche_Monkey and I removed the CIS from the engine, we took off the intake runners, and the P_M stuffed rags in the openings. When I examined the runners I noticed there were no gaskets, which is what I reported. The gaskets were, of course, back on th block, under the rags. So, my fault. Sorry to mislead everyone.

I did find this however:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398419.jpg The port w/ the black cap was uncapped and had no line attached. Looks like a vac leak to me.

I also found not only the abrasion & hole in the AAR/AAV pipe, I found 2 other wear areas:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398584.jpg

I have attempted a fix using some aluminum from a broom handle which I JB Welded to the pipe.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398696.jpg

I then JB Welded some galvanized steel over the patches, after removing the paint.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398820.jpg

JW mentioned that the pipe rubs on the housing for cooling air to the oil cooler, so I located the wear marks, which I filed down.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241398963.jpg

I then covered that area w/ galv steel. When I reinstall the CIS at least there will be 2 same materials in contact. Maybe a little bearing grease between them will keep the abrasion to a minimum. We'll see what happens.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241399126.jpg

So it wasn't the gaskets, but I've found that hole in the vac pipe, and an uncapped vac line port, as well as an atmo hose going into the thermovalve. Quite a few problem areas. I now have a newly rebuilt WUR set to factory specs, and some new vac line which will be routed correctly.

Gunter,

Sorry about the incorrect info re the gaskets. As I mentioned, I'm trying to get data from the original builder. I've also contacted the original owner to see what he can add. BTW I have an MSD 6AL CDI w/ a Blaster 2 coil

Well, we're almost there.

The Monkey and I refit the CIS components c/w some new hoses and gaskets, the vac leak in the AAR line plugged, the open port @ the TB capped, the vac lines to & from the thermovalve correct, and a newly rebuilt WUR.

The WUR as received was not "adjustable" The CCP @ 13 or 14C today was 1.5 bar, which is a little low, w/ the power line disconnected. It should be about 1.7 to 2.2. We started the engine. It ran rich. We plugged in the line and watched the CP rise to about 2.5 where it stayed for several minutes. I leaned the mix about 1/4 turn, in 4 steps, and the idle improved significantly but was still a little too rich. It appears the ccp and wcp are both low, producing a too rich condition.


(Tony,

I leaned the mix only to see if in fact the condition was too rich, as we thought. Leaning produced a better idle, so I think we are on the right track. I do want to get the CPs right, however.)


I then installed the adjusting screw to the CCP plug. Keeping the key on but the engine off, and w/ the power connected, I checked the WCP after 2, 4 and 6 minutes. It only rose to 2.6 bar. Warm running after a few minutes should be about 3.4 bar.

We left the green connector off the mix control unit, instead of jumping the FP relay. Would this make a difference? The CDI hums, and, if the sensor plate is raised, the injectors scream.

W/ the engine off and no heat other than the 12 applied volts, is this as high a WCP I can expect? I adjusted the CCP plug upward as far as it would go w/ the screw/nut in the plug, and 2.6 was as high as I could get. Will the WCP increase w/ a warm and running engine? There must be a reason why both the power connection is there and the WUR has to sit on the warmed up block.

I am hesitating to start the engine in case the CCP is now too high, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow to check the CCP w/ the engine off.

So what now? If I can't get the WCP up to 3.4 or so w/o running the engine, should I try to adjust the WCP plug downward, which increases the WCP? Should I try to drill out the brass plug @ the bottom and adjust the screw there? Should I shim the WCP spring inside to increase pressure on the diaphragm?

Maybe I should try setting the cold plug to the correct CCP for tomorrow's temp, start the engine, and w/ the heater connected, and the WUR sitting on the manifold, observe the WCPs rise. Maybe w/ both heat and power, the WCP will get up to where it needs to be.

Any suggestions?

I think you need to modify the WUR now to get proper warm control pressure. I think the main spring needs to be 'shortened' to get your pressures up? Or remove the vacuum line from the WUR and see what that does.

If you have increased the pressures slightly, I would not be afraid to start the engine.

WCP needs to go up more.......
 

Paul/Monkey (Porsche),

Glad to hear the progress of your work. The warm control pressure (WCP) is dictated by the pressure applied by the spring after the bi-metallic spring has completely deflected from the main spring during warm-up phase. I thought you had the WUR regulator re-calibrated to spec a few weeks ago. If you are not getting a WCP between 3.4 - 3.6 bar or around 50-54 psi (+/-), try to get it closer. Your WCP of 2.6 bar is just too LOW to sustain a consistent CIS operation.

Adjust the 'block' down or increase the spring pressure to raise the WCP. Or find a working WUR. Save your custombuilt WUR as your spare and install a good one. CIS is an old and antiquated technology but could be made to run reliably if you keep the parameters close to the specifications (fuel pressures, etc.).

BTW, shortening the 'spring' will cause the WCP to drop more. Why? The more pressure you apply to the valve diaphragm, the higher the control pressure reads. Keep up the good work and we want to see the car running soon!!!

Tony

When Tony was helping me, one thing that was of importance was to set the WCP first.

Even if it is hard to start (high or low pressure) get the warm right first.

This was of HUGE help to me .
If the cold is way off adjusting that can move the WCP.
So you move closer and reset it.
Each time I did it I would adjust Warm and not mess with things again till the next morning.

I have been watching all your posts and they have helped me as well ..

Your not alone ...and soon not alone ...with a great running car.:)
Finally I am running great and can play with the things I want to ... those do not include CIS.

Tony,

The WUR isn't "Custom" in any way. It's a bonafide 045 WUR for a 79 911. I had a firm that specializes in FI repair rebuild it and set it to factory specs. Unfortunately there is no way for me to test it w/o it being on the car, so I don't know if my engine is somehow keeping the WCP low or if they set it wrong.

I think we want to get more pressure against the diaphragm to raise the WCP so I've got to either push the large plug (Block) down or increase pressure upwards. I have read that this can also be done via a screw hidden behind the brass plug @ the bottom. When I tried knocking the large plug down previously, I could only raise the WCP to about 2.6 so since I'm starting w/ a WCP @ that point I may be able to get it higher.

I can check out the screw on the bottom on one of my "spares".

Brian,

I'm going to follow that procedure. Tomorrow I'll see what CCP I have. I'll then set it to spec for the ambient temp and then start the car and see where it goes. Today it went from about .5 too low cold to about .9 too low warm. Maybe starting higher will get me a higher WCP as well.


So everyone agrees--I should be able to get the "warm and running" WCP even if the engine isn't running but the WUR is plugged in and has been on for a few minutes? If this is true, then why are both the heating element and the engine heat required?

We're almost there.

You got special talent.......
 

Brian,

When I first communicated (PM) with you not too long ago, you didn't even know where the WUR was located. Or what AAR was all about. But in a very short time, you have turned into something special. Due to your background and experience, you picked up the techniques in CIS just like that. You have impressed me with your work and should share your experience with others in need. I'm no expert in CIS but sharing my limited knowledge with someone like you is priceless.

Tony

Please look at Ricks911s video........
 

Paul,

Did you ever see that video (Ricks911s) posted in his thread. That's a very good example showing the cold control pressure building over a period of time without the engine running. If your WUR is not capable of having a 'ramp time' to spec by the heating element you have a problem.

As I said many times to you, you are making a small problem into a research!!! You need to seal your air leaks and have a working WUR. We won't be here discussing a simple problem if your approach to problem solving is working. The fact that your CIS problem/s takes several months of discussions say something about your process.

That beloved WUR of yours is your Waterloo. The bi-metalic strip is not deflecting and will not be of any help to your problem. I'm becoming sarcastic and rude to you just to get your attention but I'm not getting any where. Please accept my apology. Just ask Wyvern. Good luck.

Tony

If you are having issues with pressures I'd test the fuel delivery pressure, Fuel Pump pressure and delivery volume before adjusting the WUR. Maybe you already did this?

Sal,

The FP measured out both last fall and this spring @ 4.85 bar/70 psi. The fuel delivery and spray patterns were pronounced OK by my mechanic.

In Paul's defence:

a) It was a major job to find and repair his vacuum leak, but he did that. (A repair that few members here could or would do. He removed and repaired his intake system with the engine in the car.)

b) He sent his WUR to California for calibration (twice), it now appears that both times his supplier let him down, but that remains to be determined. Regardless, he has not stuck with a non-working WUR, he is simply trying to get one his many WUR's to supply the correct pressure.

In essence he is proceeding exactly as you suggest, but just not at a pace that seems to suit you perhaps?

Porsche_Monkey,

Thank you. I appreciate your help and support.

Tony may be right. It may simply be a bad WUR c/w a bad supplier. Trouble is I don't know this until I test it. I can also have a parts seller tell me a WUR is good but I won't know THAT until I try it either.

Part of DIY is learning, experimenting, knowing it's done right etc. Part is also saving money. New WURs cost about a grand now. The UTCIS is about half that. Add about 20% for $CDN. It would be nice to get one of my existing ones to work w/o spending that kind of money.

Nobody knows how long and frustrating this has been more than me. Tony may not realize that all this represents only a few hours @ a time, over a few days last fall, followed by about 5 months of total inactivity on this, and now a few hours this spring.

In my 75 911 I had all sorts of CIS issues, I bought a new WUR and problems solved.

Could you maybe borrow one from a known working car?

I know new ones are very expensive these days.

Sal,

Cliff (Porschehead) offered one to me. I'm going to try a couple more things and if they don't work. I'll get his spare. If THAT doesn't work, then I'm off to Lourdes!

This item from Fiji may help:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1241705957.jpg

Or a sprinkle with holy water. :D

Waiting for the Eureka! before page 10. SmileWavy

Thanks Gunter. Apparently He was a carpenter, though, not a mechanic!

Currently I'm praying for a known good 045 WUR to drop from the sky into my garage.

Carpenter or Fisherman, I think he was better known to perform miracles. :D

Base to start from would be a very good battery, clean posts and ground, correct alternator/regulator output, wiring in good condiiton, all pins and connectors cleaned and lubed with dielectric grease.

It's virtually impossible that all those WURs were on the bad side especially since you also tried an adjustable one plus you have rebuild one that was bench-tested by expert rebuilders?

FD acting up? Pump getting tired? More vac leaks?

Gunter,

I agree re the WURs. I'm thinking either I didn't have enough power for the WUR and pump to operate correctly or I have insufficient vacuum. I got the settings used by the rebuilder and was about to do another test including voltage @ the WUR and vacuum. I was also going to check power @ the thermoswitch because Tony had mentioned that a bad TS would net a CP about 1 bar low, which is what I was getting. I was about to hook up a vac gauge when another wrinkle manifest itself:

Last night, as the last act of my old battery, the fuel pump failed to start for yet another pressure test. This happened suddenly. After several tests working as it should, it just wouldn't anymore.

Today I installed a new one. The sensor plate switch was disconnected and the FP relay in place, just as I had done for all the previous tests. Again, the pump failed to start. All of a sudden, this new complication! I also couldn't get any power anymore @ the WUR connection.

I was able, however, to plug in the sensor plate switch, and the engine started and ran!

I disconnected the switch and again, the pump failed to run. Then, after reconnecting the switch, the engine refused to fire. The pump relay clicked when the key was turned but nothing happened. The pump relay, wiring, and fuse seemed fine. I tried several relays w/ no success.

I'm not entirely sure, but I thinnk the starter would crank when the switch was connected and the key turned to start position, but wouldn't turn when the switch was disconnected.

I put my battery tender on the new battery and began charging. After 3 hours the charging was still taking place.

I will have to check in the morning. I'm hoping the new battery was not fully charged. If that wasn't the cause, then I've got to go through the wiring and see what is wrong before I can do any more WUR testing.

Fix the electrical stuff
 

+1 agreed 100%! From a previous post in another thread by Paul: SmileWavy

Paul you should fix the electrical stuff, if you dont feel like it then just fix the electrical stuff, or if you think you should just fix the electrical stuff first, then bypass that and fix the electrical stuff. After your finished fixing the electrical stuff then fix the electrical stuff.:D

I have no choice, really. There can be no further testing until this new electrical issue is resolved.

Then, I'm thinking a vacuum test, and checking out the thermovalve.

Then it's back to stevemfr's procedure.

Sorry to hear that it's getting from bad to worse.
A Tender doesn't really charge a battery, a real Charger is needed.

Sounds like there are multiple electrical problems and any of the tests on various threads with multiple pages are meaningless and nobody learned anything from it.
Seems to me that some wiring might be getting tired and/or some connections are suspect.
How old is the pump?
How much current does it draw?

Here is a well-meaning reality-check:
If the rest of the engine and wiring are in the same condition as the dirty, grimy CIS and airbox shown in an earlier picture, it's time to do a major TLC overhaul and perhaps consider a new harness or at least replace some of the suspected wires.
Intermittent electrical problems are the most frustrating and need to be eliminated first.

You indicated that it ran fine for 15 years but you also don't really know many details of your engine other than it's not stock. We also don't know what was done to the wiring or anything else that may be different from stock.

Paul, please, spare us another series of lengthy threads going all over the map; overhaul your electrical system starting with Battery/Alternator and check wire-sizes and condition with the help of an electrical diagram.
And check the current-draw of suspected components.

Best wishes. SmileWavy

Gunter,

Thanks for the "best wishes" :)

I don't think I would agree that the previous tests were invalid , because ALL the tests exhibited the exact same startup procedure until about a day and a half ago. That's when suddenly the fuel pump did not run. Last fall and this spring the pressure was always 70 psi. I'm not an engineer, but I don't think a procedure that is repeated multiple times, and then suddenly when an issue manifests itself that is then repeated can that issue be termed "intermittent".

Either way, I will be doing as you suggest. This elec problem has to be fixed before moving on.

BTW I'm still awaiting further info on my engine from the 2 sources I mentioned.

The FP was replaced but I'll have to check on when. I'll see if I can get the current draw. It hasn't blown the 25A fuse, however.

I guess as an EE I need to help out on this issue now...

Any help is welcome, even from simians and/or engineers. Even sarcastic ones :)

BY JOVE, I THINK I"VE GAWT IT!

Looks a lot like success!

I've had my work done about 2 weeks ago, but I wanted to wait until I could verify my results. I think I've finally solved all my start/run problems.

Over the course of this long thread and process, I've done the following:

Tested and rejected 3 WURs after cleaning, reassembling and resetting them
Tested a 4th and had it cleaned and set twice. Finally reset it on the car w/ a FP gauge
Located and patched an emerging vacuum leak in the metal pipe to the AAR and AAV
Found an atmo line attached to the thermovalve. Replaced it w/ a vac line
Replaced several original vac hoses
Confirmed AAR, FD and WUR are correct for CIS system in place
Confirmed correct functioning of the AAR, AAV, TV, TTS, FD and injectors
Found and plugged an open vac port on the firewall side of the TB
Found and replaced a bad lead to the TTS
Confirmed a solid airbox
Confirmed a correctly functioning fuel pump
Cleaned all exposed CIS and "topside" parts (although maybe not to the standards of some)
Repaired the connector to the WUR; which broke during testing, by adding new female connections
Replaced the gaskets to the intake manifolds and the crankcase breather, and reset the oil sender w/ thread sealant
Removed and replaced the CIS system w/ the engine in the car
Drained about 1 qt from the tank to get lower than the previous "top of the 2 marks" amount

Today the engine fired right up @ 13C w/ a steady 2000 rpm idle. The engine pulled w/o popping during warmup strongly to 4000 rpm, and gradually settled to a steady 950 rpm. Once warm the engine pulled strongly to 6500 rpm and settled to a steady 950 rpm. There was a slight rev hang during a dropped throttle, confirming a proper decel valve function. There was no popping on accel, decel, or idle. There was no idle hunting. There was no dipping below and then returning to 950, signifying a not too rich mixture.

When I can, I'll verify my mixture w/ an LM-1 I can borrow from another Pelican. I'm planning on 3-3.5% per JW's recommendation, since the car is smog regulation exempt.

Thanks to the many Pelicans who followed this thread, offered advice (and sometimes sarcasm). Stevemfr, LJ, Ty, Ricks911S and others offered a wealth of info. I appreciated all comments, even if I've inadvertently failed to mention you here.

I now have a sweet running car. It seemed like a long haul, but the car actually sat idle from mid November until the first week of March. Also, as I said, just about everything was cleared up about 2 weeks ago, but I wanted to be sure of my results.

I particularly want to thank Tony and Gunter for their insightful, humorous but well meaning (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt) comments, and Mark87930 for the kind use of his gauges to someone he previously didn't even know from Bullwinkle. I also couldn't have done it w/o the capable efforts of the Porsche_Monkey who provided hours of his expertise and time to get this thing running right.

Now I'm going driving!

Congratulations Paul. And thanks for mentioning me. Twice. :)

This was a real challenge, I think your car had a lot of issues that accumulated over the years. Kudos to you for sticking with it and resolving them without a real mechanic. Or a real mechanics bill.

Great job! You should be proud.

Good job!!!!
 

Paul,

Nice to hear that your car is back running again. But you did not mention anything about your control and system pressures. Could you share this information to the rest of the readers? Thanks.

Tony