Freeze 12 fittings?

[Hugh R]

I converted my A/C compressor to R134a fittings for charging and now I want to try putting freeze 12 in the vehicle, but the can tap fitting size is different. Anyone know if they make an adapter to fit on a set of 134 gauges? I really don't want to buy new gauges and hoses for an experiment. Thanks

[brads911sc]

Freeze 12 is highly flameable. Its why none of the car companies use it. It will void any warranty. Its illegal in about 1/2 the states and some insurance companies wont cover a lose due to fire if you use it. Id stick with R134a or switch to good old R12. If you must use it... Id make sure its not illegal in your state and not one of the insurance company exclusions... Just my .02.

[Hugh R]

The can says nonf-lammable. So does the freeze-12.com website.

[janz]

The place you bought it from should have the adapters, thats where I got mine.

[rnln]

hugh,
I was going to use it after a lot of searches and questions, but decided not to. It is not exploded by itself but it is flamable.

I am sorry Hugh, the above I was talking about ES-12 (I mixed up). I used Freeze12 before, the tech said R12 but put freeze12 in my car. When I saw the can afterward, I pointed it out and they said "R12 compatible". I got some cool but not that cold and got leaked in couple weeks so I redid it with 134a. Then you helped me with ideas, last year. Then I brought my car to another person to tried it again. After many tries, now I am happy with my 134a, of course not as happy as a modern car's AC. Do I want freeze12 again? No.

[JMH82SC]

I have used Freeze 12 as that is what was in my SC when I bought it. This year I was pushed over the edge with a leak and lack of availability of Freeze 12 so I converted to 134A. With a 100% stock system with York compressor I hit 36 degrees on the interstate in 80 degree Fl weather. Freeze 12 was never as cold as the 134A in my system.

[brads911sc]

Freeze 12 is a hydrocarbon... hydrocarbons by definition are flamable.

Read this...
http://www.sae.org/news/releases/05hydrocarbon.htm

See post below for part of the article...

Oh I get 36 at the vents with 134a. If you arent getting what you want its not the 134a that is the problem...

[brads911sc]

Vehicle manufacturers, automotive parts suppliers, the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and other organizations are warning car and truck owners to avoid the use of flammable hydrocarbon refrigerants, which are being marketed on the Internet, at flea markets and swap meets, and in some service shops, but are not authorized for this use. In the United States, it is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants to replace CFC-12 used in cars manufactured before 1994. Hydrocarbon refrigerants used in newer vehicles designed for refrigerant HFC-134a will void the air conditioner warranty and may endanger service technicians. Leaking air conditioning systems charged with hydrocarbons pose serious risks of fire or explosion under the hood or inside the passenger compartment.

"The U.S. EPA urges vehicle owners to do their part to protect the environment and to ensure their own safety by properly servicing air conditioners with refrigerants listed by EPA and recommended by vehicle manufacturers," said Drusilla Hufford, Director of EPA's Stratospheric Protection Division. "Professional service includes electronic refrigerant identification, leak testing, leak repair, defective parts replacement, and recovery and recycling of refrigerant."

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), the Mobile Air Conditioning Society Worldwide (MACS), and the vehicle manufacturers, automotive organizations and suppliers listed below agree that hydrocarbons are unsafe as refrigerants in vehicle mobile air conditioning systems designed for CFC-12 and HFC-134a.

"Existing mobile air conditioning systems are not designed to use a hydrocarbon refrigerant that is highly flammable and similar to what supplies the fire in your backyard barbeque," said Ward Atkinson, Chair of the SAE Interior Climate Control Standards Committee. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia have laws prohibiting the use of a flammable refrigerant in mobile air conditioning systems (Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of Columbia).

The motor vehicle service community and environmental authorities are working to phase out the use of CFC-12 refrigerants that deplete the stratospheric ozone layer and to reduce the emissions of HFC-134a, a greenhouse gas. "Professional service protects the environment and saves money," said Elvis Hoffpauir, president of the Mobile Air Conditioning Society. "Hydrocarbon refrigerants are dangerous products being sold to unsuspecting consumers."

EPA has found no persuasive evidence that hydrocarbons are safe to use as refrigerants in vehicles designed for non-flammable refrigerants such as CFC-12 or HFC-134a. EPA banned the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants as a replacement for CFC-12 under the authority granted by the Clean Air Act and has authority to take enforcement action to protect the public against companies violating the law.

Companies marketing hydrocarbon refrigerants point out that EPA lacks specific authority to prohibit the use of hydrocarbons to replace HFC-134a. They use this fact to argue that CFC-12 systems converted to an EPA-listed retrofit refrigerant such as HFC-134a can be safely converted to hydrocarbons. There is no evidence to prove that hydrocarbons are safe to use in mobile air conditioning systems designed for either CFC-12 or HFC-134a.

No vehicle manufacturer has endorsed or authorized the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in current production mobile air conditioning systems and no professional or technical association has approved the use of hydrocarbon refrigerants. Vehicle warranties are voided for any air conditioning system that has been charged with hydrocarbons. Vehicle manufacturers only recognize HFC-134a as acceptable for use in their current mobile air conditioning systems. Easy identification by service technicians using sophisticated refrigerant identifiers will help avoid the risk of explosion and guard against the contamination of equipment when refrigerant is recovered and recycled.

"Every car has a manufacturer's label under the hood that identifies the recommended refrigerant that is safe to use and that will provide reliable system operation," said William Hill, General Motors. "Customers should only use the recommended refrigerant."
-------------------------------------
The article goes on....

You've been warned. Dont believe everything you read on a commercial website... I would never put that in my car...

[scottb]

One of these should do it:

http://tinyurl.com/oadgd4

http://tinyurl.com/pgud2q

[timc]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

Freeze 12 is a hydrocarbon... hydrocarbons by definition are flamable.

Read this...
http://www.sae.org/news/releases/05hydrocarbon.htm

See post below for part of the article...

Oh I get 36 at the vents with 134a. If you arent getting what you want its not the 134a that is the problem...

Wait a min, Your driving around in a car, with 22GL of gasoline in front of you, 25yr old fuel lines running between you and your pass, and your worried about the "debatable" flammability of Freeze12?

Envio-Safe says Flamable on the cans, Freeze12 says Non-Flamable, it's a mixture of 134 and 142.

Edit: Ordered a case and putting it in my car this weekend.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

I converted my A/C compressor to R134a fittings for charging and now I want to try putting freeze 12 in the vehicle, but the can tap fitting size is different. Anyone know if they make an adapter to fit on a set of 134 gauges? I really don't want to buy new gauges and hoses for an experiment. Thanks

Hugh~
I've got a couple of cans of Enviro-Safe (ES-12) industrial strength. They're yours if you want them. In my 3.2, I was getting 32* at the center vent on a 105* day. This was while running a constant speed on the freeway though... Anyway, I've heard that Freeze 12 is NOT quite as effective as ES12. In my car, ES12 worked better than R12, or 134a. The fittings used for 134a worked for the ES12.

I don't use the stuff anymore, as I removed the A/C unit from the car as it's primary use is for the track!

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by brads911sc

The article goes on....

You've been warned. Dont believe everything you read on a commercial website... I would never put that in my car...

Good heavens... Wouldn't want to void the warranty on my 25 year old car...

[PatrickB]

Hugh,

If you haven't upgraded any of the components, check out www.rennaire.com for more info.
No affiliation, other than just another satisfied customer.
Pelican sells the Receiver/Drier (Pro-Cooler) that really gives the biggest bang for the buck
If you wanted to upgrade just a single component.
Between that and the ES12, my A/C actually worked!

[Hugh R]

OK, good info, Thanks everyone for chiming in. I wouldn't knowingly use a flammable material in my A/C. With high side pressures of up to 300 PSI, that would be really stupid. Everything I've read says Freeze 12 is not flammable or explosive, maybe, maybe not. I'm pretty sure the CA State Fire Marshal wouldn't allow it to be sold at Pep Boys if it were mislabeled. I'm a safety guy by profession after all. So I guess the question is does it work better than R134a in a system designed for R-12. Most of you are saying R134a works better. If so, then I'll go back to R134a. It's not the cost, it's the end result that I want. I can buy a universal can tap for $25 delivered, and the Freeze 12 is about $8/can versus $12/can for R134a.

I've looked at the rennair and Kuehl products, I've rebuilt the Seiko/Sanden compressor, put in barrier hoses, have a deck lid/ L/R fan powered condensor, an 18" static condensor underbelly (no fan) and a front condensor with a bunch of computer muffin fans. I also have a Jim Sims subcooler. I get OK cooling when at speed, but it goes to hell in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Car originally came without A/C, and was put in aftermarket by some PO. With everything I've got, I should be making ice, but I get only at best a 30 degree temperature split, which isn't anything when it's 110 degrees outside.

[rnln]

Hugh,
If you compare to the modern car, it's the volumn of air comming into the cabin, not the temp. I was curious enough to measure side by side between my 911 and my lexus. On freeway constant speed, I can get down to almost 30 degrees on my 911 (of course it take a while to get there). On local street, I can get around 40 to 45 degree at speed (doesn't feel that cold). While my Lexus can easily get 45, 46 degree even at stop and go at second click on the knob. And at 45 degree, the lexus is cold already and can give pleasure atmosphere. Also on the 911, the max I feel air blow is with less than 2 feet from the vent. On the Lexus, I can feel the blow from the back seat, if turn max. So I definitely think the important part is not just the temp but air volumn is also very important.

[Hugh R]

RNLN, definitely flow is a big part of the issue. It's like sitting next to a block of ice, without a fan you don't cool down. I may look at one of the aftermarket super fans for the evaporator box.

[timc]

I have been building up a reserve of R12 for my ac, but after talking to several shops that use freeze12 in the R12 cars, I am going to give that a try. They have told me that the F12 runs lower head pressures than 134, and the cooling is comparable to R12. I was looking hard for an alternative to 134 due to the long hose runs in a 911. If the F12 does not work, I'll just use R12.

If I had the upgraded fender condensors with the large fans then I'd consider 134, but with a stock system, and the smaller rear condensor of the 930, I'm sure my head pressures would be out of this world with 134.

Good luck with what ever you decide....

[scottrx7tt]

Originally Posted by timc

I have been building up a reserve of R12 for my ac, but after talking to several shops that use freeze12 in the R12 cars, I am going to give that a try. They have told me that the F12 runs lower head pressures than 134, and the cooling is comparable to R12. I was looking hard for an alternative to 134 due to the long hose runs in a 911. If the F12 does not work, I'll just use R12.

If I had the upgraded fender condensors with the large fans then I'd consider 134, but with a stock system, and the smaller rear condensor of the 930, I'm sure my head pressures would be out of this world with 134.

Good luck with what ever you decide....

im using the freeze 12 with no problems

[Hugh R]

Went to Lucas Auto Air in the Valley, they know A/C. Their guy told me I should go with R134a., so I guess that's where I'm headed.

[PatrickB]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

OK, good info, Thanks everyone for chiming in. I wouldn't knowingly use a flammable material in my A/C. With high side pressures of up to 300 PSI, that would be really stupid. Everything I've read says Freeze 12 is not flammable or explosive, maybe, maybe not. I'm pretty sure the CA State Fire Marshal wouldn't allow it to be sold at Pep Boys if it were mislabeled. I'm a safety guy by profession after all. So I guess the question is does it work better than R134a in a system designed for R-12. Most of you are saying R134a works better. If so, then I'll go back to R134a. It's not the cost, it's the end result that I want. I can buy a universal can tap for $25 delivered, and the Freeze 12 is about $8/can versus $12/can for R134a.

I've looked at the rennair and Kuehl products, I've rebuilt the Seiko/Sanden compressor, put in barrier hoses, have a deck lid/ L/R fan powered condensor, an 18" static condensor underbelly (no fan) and a front condensor with a bunch of computer muffin fans. I also have a Jim Sims subcooler. I get OK cooling when at speed, but it goes to hell in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Car originally came without A/C, and was put in aftermarket by some PO. With everything I've got, I should be making ice, but I get only at best a 30 degree temperature split, which isn't anything when it's 110 degrees outside.

With ES12, your high & low side pressure will be cut in half, if not more. The temp out of the vent, with all your upgrades, will be 30*, not 30 less than OAT! I paid $6 a can for the stuff 5 years ago...