Ignition switch starter lockout problem
 

You know when you turn your ignition key all the way to the rightmost start position and you're supposed to feel spring resistance right when you crank the starter? If there's no spring resistance, the starter doesn't crank. Yesterday it became intermittent between spring action and no spring action, finally ended up that there's no spring resistance and no starter action at all.

Thread searches seemed to indicate that the spring resistance is in the electrical switch section, so I took that out, and don't really feel the spring resistance at the end of the rotation, but do feel resistance of the detents of each position. This leads me to think the spring resistance is located in the mechanical portion of the ignition switch housing. Turning the key in the ignition assembly without the switch shows no resistance or spring action. I tried starting the car with the switch out of the assembly and using a screwdriver to rotate it. Dash lights up like normal, in position 1, but when I go to the start position, lights go out like normal, but no love from the starter.

Anyone know what's going on and what the solution may be? Is there some type of selenoid in the switch housing?

The spring action is in the electrical part. It is surprisingly tight, so use a screwdriver and give it a *little* extra umph.

The electrical part is a pretty simple piece, with the spring, detents and starter-lockout. It's possible/probable that the lockout has broken loose or frozen. If something else was broken in there, you wouldn't be getting lights and such (I think it's just a disk with the contacts that spins around to touch other contacts).

Frankly, once that assembly starts to go, it's gone, get another one.

Edit: Or go for a push button start...

OK, got it, I turned the switch harder with a screwdriver, say from 12:00 to 4:30 and got the springing action and the car started.

So I put the switch back in the housing, turned the key, and seems stops right around the 4:00 position, not allowing rotation to get past that to get to 4:30 where you get the spring resistance. I'm guessing there's some kind of lockout in the housing preventing the starter position?

I've found that when the electrical part starts to go, you can get that intermittent start ability. Sometimes it involves wriggling the key and putting pressure on it to get it to "pop" over to the start location. It's gonna break soon. There is a lockout such that if you do get over to the start location, and then let it spring back, you cannot them put it back to start without completely shutting the car off. This is to prevent hitting the starter while the engine is running. That action is obvious when you do it, and it doesn't seem like it's what's going on with you, but I do think it's that same lockout assembly that is breaking internally and causing your issues.

The mechanical part of the switch is "dumb", and doesn't have any detents or anything, so it won't prevent the key from turning all the way over. Unless of course it physically breaks like my last one did, where the little pot metal "cross" that engages the electrical portion cracks off and jams in place, but you would have known already if something like that happened.

So the lockout is in the housing correct? The electrical switch seems to be normal. Is the mechanical part really completely dumb? There's a separate two wire connector that plugs into the mechanical part that controls the lockout I'm guessing?

I'm afraid I'm going to be going through this mess soon with mine. currently I have to turn my switch back a few degrees after starting the car to get my Power Windows, Sunroof, and Brake Lights(!) to work. Not sure how long I drove around without brake lights before I discovered this issue.

I experienced the same problem several years ago. A little spray of WD40 into the key slot with the supplied straw solved it. Cheap and easy give it a try!

No, the lockout is in the electrical part, you can test it with your screwdriver.

Now, I'll add that the lockout came along later in the years, but I don't know when. If you're is completely stock and original, it *might* be pre-lockout. If it's ever been replaced, then it has a lockout (the new part has a 964 part number).

The two wires on the mechanical part are some kind of sensor that tells something if the steering wheel lock is retracted or not. I'm not sure if it will actually prevent the car from starting. I know that you can disconnect those wires, and everything still works, so if it is actually part of the wiring harness, then it goes OPEN when the car can start, and CLOSED when the steering is locked.

The only stuff in the mechanical part is the key tumbler (your seems fine since you can turn it), a piece of metal that takes the key motion and turns the electrical part, and the simple assembly that runs the steering wheel lock...there's no other switches/lockouts/anything in there. You can (and I have) drive the car without the mechanical part installed.

Hello,
Excuse me for interrupting but I have a question about the ignition switch removal process that I hope someone can answer on this thread. I am replacing the electical part of the switch on my '77 911, following "101..." Although everything is loose, the switch will not leave the dash despite my maneuvers. Looks like the large round plug needs to be off first. Can this plug be pried apart or is there a trick? After 32 years it is not cooperating. Thanks for any help.
Regards......Doug

Doug,
On my 79 I couldn't get the switch out either had to chisel the two rivets off the plate that the switch goes thru in order to get it out.
Hope this helps.

Switch removal:

From the front of the dash:
Remove the trim ring around the keyhole.
Drill out or dremel the two security bolts (once the tension is off of them, they come out easy).
Drill out the two small rivets. The plate around the switch in the dash should be loose now.

From under the dash:
Remove the wiring harness from the back of the switch (it just slides on the contacts, it's tight, get a thin screwdriver between the pieces and pry it loose).
Loosen the locknut right under the steering wheel where the steering lock connects with the steering column. Loosen the set screw that the locknut is holding. Don't completely remove it, but get it pretty loose.


The switch is now loose, and should come out. It takes a bit of maneuvering. Once it's out, you can remove the electrical portion from the mechanical portion with the two small flathead screws that hold them together.

Putting in is about 10 times harder than removing it :D

Pete,
Thank you for replying. I have ground off the heads of the shear bolts with a Dremel and loosened the nut on the steering lock. My problem is clearance for removal of the switch. Can the large round electrical plug be taken off while the unit is still under the dash? I don't want to damage it while prying and there does not appear to be sufficient room if the electrics are attached. Again, thanks.....Doug

Brake cleaner, wd40 and massaging/cleaning the tumblers fixed my intermittent non start ignition switch.....been good for 3+ years since.

The plug can and must be removed before removing the switch. It just pulls off, give it some elbow grease. The pins inside are big healthy things, you can safely get a screwdriver in there and work it loose with that.

Pazuzu,
I appreciate your thorough responses. Now I just need the time and talent to finish. Thank you.

After more research, it appears the no start lockout is probably occurring in the key cylinder portion of the ignition switch. Apparently there's a pressed backplate on the backside of the cylinder that performs a no start lockout until you turn your key full back to off. The backplate loosens off enough to keep the starter position permanently locked out. Here's the post that detailed the lockout and the problem with pictures:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/348306-ignition-switch-inside-fix-start-lockout.html

Looks like I'm going to have to pull the whole assembly out and either try to fix it or replace it.

Also, it seems the two pin electrical connector on the housing is used for the key in buzzer.

I don't care for the lockout that prevents operating the starter twice without going back to the off position. It reminds me of forklifts and really, there is no chance I'm going to forget my engine is running.

Steve.

I had my '84 do the same thing last year. I took the ignition switch out and took it to a guy here in Denver who is somewhat of a wizard on P cars and in about 5 minutes, he dissambled the mechanical portion of the switch and removed the pin that performs the lock out (that pin keeps you from activating the starter while the engine is running). He told me to be careful not to try to start the car while the engine is running. It has worked like a charm since then. I thought I might have to replace the electrical portion, but that was definitely not the problem.

PM me and I can find the guys number. He would talk to you on the phone and direct you with what to do.

Thanks, I'm going to see if I can salvage the lockout mechanism first by repunching the backplate retainer pins on the key cylinder. If not then I can always remove the lockout pin as it doesn't look that complicated. Looks like the biggest job is going to removing and reinstalling the whole steering lock assembly.

+1
Only I flooded the mechanical portion with WD40, worked the key repeatedly, and then blew it out with compressed air. Switch worked fine after that.
HTH:cool:

Well, here it is. Took the start switch/steering lock assembly out of the dash. Wasn't too bad. Removed the plastic key hole faceplace (unscrews off), and behind it you will find two shear bolts and two rivets. Removed the steering wheel for access, and drilled the shear bolts and rivets out. Under the dash, by the steering column is an allen set screw that need to be loosened also. Unplug the three harness plugs against the firewall behind the starter switch, unplug the plug from the starter switch, and pull the assembly out. Total time about 1/2 hour.

From there you will see the small pin around the key tumbler that holds it in. Drilled out the pin, only go about 1/8 to 3/16" in and not more than that or you will damage the key way. Wacked the keyhole face against a block of wood to release any residual of the pin and the key way cylinder should slide out. Just as expected, the backplate was loose, about 1/16", not allowing the thin steel plate sandwiched between to rotate as it should, putting the assembly on permanent starter lockout. There is no way any amount of lube or cleaning would have fixed this situation. You can see the thin steel plate in the first pic below. The cylinder was placed keyhole face down against a block of wood, and with a hammer and punch, the two retaining pins that are supposed to hold the backplate were repunched, fastening the backplate against the keyhole assembly just as when it was new. You can see the punched retaining pins in the second pic as the two black round dimples with the punch marks. This should be even more solid than when it was new, as the original retaining punch was kind of light.

The cylinder was put back into the assembly, and a small screw was screwed into where the retaining pin was drilled out. A hacksaw blade was used to cut off any protruding part of the screw so it was flush with the housing. Reinstall the assembly back behind the dash, and either use two 10mm bolts where the shear bolts were drilled out, or screw in two new shear bolts. Everything now works perfectly and just like new. Total cost about $0 vs. $500+ for a new assembly.

http://www.911chips.com/lock1.JPG

http://www.911chips.com/lock2.JPG

Steve,
Good job!
Just did this last week, not a fan of the 500.00+ option either.
I didn't remove the steering wheel. If you use a prick punch on the sheer bolts they turn out fairly easily. For reassembly I dremmeled a slot in the sheer bolts and screwed them back in.

Boy howdy did I learn something today! I always figured that little sprung plate on the back of the tumbler was just to keep tension on things. I can state that my lock set does not have a lockout action to it, even though it has that assembly on it. I wonder if they break two different ways, either always causing the lockout, or never causing it...

I'm also almost positive that my new electrical portion has a lockout inside of it. I wonder if the newer (964) mechanical assemblies have no lockout, leaving it to the electrical portion. I do not know what my old (stock) electrical part was like, because it came out of the dash in pieces :)

Can't speak for anything newer than my 79 ignition, but the lock-out is in the tumbler on mine.
The spring under the pin on mine was broken and not allowing the pin to engage the lock-out.
I opted not to fix this and just left the pin out.
The reason for my disassembly was that my key would not turn.
The spring that returns the key from "start" to "on" is in the electical side.

Many thanks to you guys who responded to my question. I had time to replace the ignition switch today without being tired after work. Process went well and fix solved the problem.
Regards...Doug

intermittant loss of spring action when starting
 

My 71 911T is doing the intermittant loss of spring action thing. When I turn the key to the right the lights come on but there is no spring resistance and no starter. I replaced the electrical portion of the switch (lots of fun) but the problem continued. I havnt yet tried squirting WD or graphite into the keyhole yet. Reading the posts there appears to be some difference of opinion on the subject. Any words of wisdom out there?

Hi,

That two wire plug on the mech. part is for the annoying buzzer to remind you that you left the key in, mine was disconnected when I bought the car, so I reconnected it, and you guessed it, took it back off again!

Rutager

It's not that your switch has a springing problem, it's that the starter interlock on the tumbler is preventing you from turning the key far enough to hit the starter/springing position. In other words, it's not the electrical switch, but the mechanical section.

I tried the WD 40 in the switch before trying to outspend the problem. Works perfect now. There are apparently several things in there that can act up and yet show the same symptom. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Bringing this old post back up hoping on I can get a little more clarifiction on how this ignition switch works.

I pulled mine apart after searching and reading several threads. The pressed on plate was completely off of the 2 pins. I have it at the locksmith getting re-keyed to match the doors and glovebox.

The question: If I leave the little pin, it's spring, and the thin ring out, I can put it back together and all will be fine except that I will not have the starter lockout feature, correct?

me 3
 

sadly me too, I have intermittent no starts.

I hear the fuel pump, starter solenoid click but no start, after 5 minutes starts right up and for rest of the day.

just order electrical part but I may have to do Dr Wong's fix, oh the joy :(

but I still have good spring action. the reason I suspecting the electrical portion is after 1/2 a dozen tries my right turn signal quickly flashes, very wierd but I am guessing it could be some fault in the contacts on the electrical side.

It's not that bad once you have the shear bolts out. Lucky for me, I guess, the PO had replaced the ignition switch at some point and put in allen head bolts instead of the shear bolts, so now I can have the entire ignition(electrical & mechanical) out in about 10 minutes.

I would like to know if I can leave the pin and rotating plate out though?

This is awesome, you saved me a lot of money, thanks!
This is the best of what this sight is all about.

I finally got around to pulling my ignition switch today and indeed the switch was stuck in permanent lock out mode. I was able to resolve that issue thanks to this thread.

Unfortunately that’s not enough to resolve the issue.
I know the electrical switch works using a screw driver, that’s how I’ve been starting my car for the last year b/c I didn’t have time to dive into pulling the mechanical switch.

Now that I’ve resolved the lock out issue, it seems I’m about 5 degrees short of the mechanical switch fully engaging the electrical switch.

Perhaps my electrical switch is worn to the point where the mechanical switch can’t rotate enough to engage it?
I have been using a screw driver to turn it over for the past year so perhaps I over stressed the spring assembly in the switch. Thoughts?

Lots of great info about the no start issue due to the ignition switch. I started to get ready for the key lock removal and thought I’d first try what Phrog did to resolve his issue by spraying some wd40 into the switch. The car now starts every time instead of 1 out of 15. Guess I got very lucky. See how long the lock lasts.