Got the car back from the mechanics

[peter_soj]

Hey everyone.
It's been a few months since I've posted on here, and I'm back with some news. The had been sitting still for a few months, and then an accident happened with the engine which drove me and my dad to decide to send the car to a qualified Porsche mechanic! It went there and we pretty much just said "fix it" with the idea that the car will come out of there running.
So we went back every few weeks to see how the car was coming along, supposedly the CIS was pretty much seized up in every way, the fuel pump needed reconditioning and other bits and pieces needed replacing or reconditioning as well.
There's a list of stuff the mechanics did but I think you guys get the gist of it. After they got the car running we went back and I talked to them about the head studs and whatnot. They ended up checking them, and they were all still intact!!! Luckily for us. They torqued them up a bit, and left it at that.
As we had no history of the engine or the car at all, we asked them if they thought any other work had been done on the car. The guy said he thinks the engine might have had a rebuild at some stage, he also said the engine should run strong for at least another 100,000kms.
We had a few dramas with it though, went to pick the car up last week and got there, turned over once or twice, then battery died. They hooked up a jumper, and took a while to start. Then we spoke to the owner of the mechanics and he said it started up perfect every time for him, first try. So we MUST have "flooded" the engine. So a few days later my dad went back with a brand new battery, and the car took a fair while to start up again. The owner was away for the weekend though. So dad went back yesterday, the owner tried to start it, took a while to start, and we got this response "these fuel injection systems are crap, this is probably the best your gonna get it" so with that said, we went back today, took a bit to start, first off tried with no throttle, then put a little bit on and eventually got it started.
The drive home wasn't too bad, the brake pedal kept sticking, and the clutch had A LOT of first gear shudder, after about 2 minutes of driving a fair bit of smoke started pouring out the exhaust. We kept on going though, home was only 5-10 more minutes away, the smoke kept coming out all the way home. So I parked it, and let it run for another 10-15 mins. The smoke stopped coming out all together, making me think it may have just been some grease or oil that was somewhere on the engine from the mechanics.
Well, no story is complete without a video, this is of the car once parked in the driveway.

Thanks for reading.

Peter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SkFL7WmWdM

[Larry_Ratcliff]

It sounds like your WUR is bad (warm up regulator)

It also sounds like maybe you are coming close to due for a clutch job

As for the smoke .... I would tend to agree that maybe this is the first time it got hot enough to burn off oil from hands on it or something... I would say drive it a few more times and check...

[peter_soj]

Thanks larry, I'll have to do some research on the WUR, im hoping its easily adjustable? Also I'm hoping that the clutch will still hold out for a fair while, the car had been sitting for a few years prior to me buying it, so it could just be a build up of something on the clutch plate.

And if anyone else has some ideas about the starting problems and whatnot, please post away

I thought it might have something to do with the CSV. As starting it up about 2-3 hours after getting it home, it didn't take as long to start up, i'm guessing because it was warm.

Thanks!

[Gogar]

If the smoke after a few minutes was really intense, like a fumigation truck or something, its possible that your mechanic put too much oil in the car. When the car warms up, the oil expands, and the extra oil goes through the breather tube into the airbox. Pull your air filter out and see if the area behind it is wet with oil.

[ramonesfreak]

i think in order to get an answer here, your gonna need to describe the poor-start symptoms better. does it start but immediately die? does it just turn over and over? do you smell fuel? could be any number of things.

what does "CIS seized up in every way" mean?

did the mechanic explain exactly what he did to your CIS?

maybe he doesnt know what he is doing. In fact, given his ridiculous statement that CIS is "crap" leads me to believe he is not a pro when it comes to tuning them

[Gunter]

Sitting for years will gum-up the CIS but you can check the flow like this:

Get 6 same-size glass jars.
Remove the air filter.
Pull the injectors out and place each one in a glass jar.
Turn ignition ON (Not to Start!)
Carefully lift the Airflow Plate inside the airbox very briefly, about 2-3 Seconds!
You should hear the injectors squeel while ejecting fuel into the jars.
Turn ignition OFF.
There should be an equal amount of fuel in the jars.

Fire Extinguisher nearby is recommended!

WUR is not adjustable
Oil level is checked with engine hot and running; middle of the range is good.
CIS is a good system if it's clean and all components work.
Don't go back to the specialist.
I hope that the head studs were not re-torqued more than 23-24 ft-lbs.

[Brother]

I would say this guy is your ex mechanic now.

having a car sit for a long time is not good for it.

You could try driving the piss out of it (close to home) and getting it good and warm. Proceed from there.

[T77911S]

i almost stopped reading when you said the mech said "this is probably the best your gonna get it" and tell ya find another mech.
i hate to ask how much all this cost so i wont.
cold starting could be the cold start valve.
with a set of pressure gages and help from here, you can get it fixed.

[dshepp806]

What does your oil level check reveal? Just curious?

Ask him the results of his checking the CSV or WUR.....(surely a qualified Porsche mechanic would have)........

Ask him what torque values were applied to the head studs (a qualified Porsche mechanic will tell you).

I don't know jack about CIS but have read enough to know that truly experienced wrenches are quite welcome in this area (as mentioned above).

No doubt, the use of the word "crap" about CIS (from a qualified Porsche Mechanic) is quite "mysterious".


There are many here on this forum that can speak (at length) about CIS,..prepare for it,..it's coming!!!!

...time to dig..........

Best of luck,

Doyle

[mede8er]

If you mean the engine is turning over very slowly, even with a new battery, the ground strap from the trans to the body is loose or corroded away.....

[john walker's workshop]

or you could have a vw sr17x starter instead of the faster 911 one.

[peter_soj]

srandallf, Yes I do think I need to describe the symptoms better, I gave a pretty poor description in the original post.

When the key is turned the motor turns over just fine, not slowly. But it doesn't run by itself, just turns over for a while, and then I applied a small amount of throttle and it fired up a little bit, and after turning it over for another 10 or so seconds, a little bit of throttle given again, it eventually fired up. Hopefully this vague description can give an idea as to the problem.
The mechanic did explain except I can't remember it all, theres a bunch of stuff on the receipt as to what was done.
I've read a lot about the problems people have had with CIS, and I also think he was ridiculous in saying it's "crap" as I've read that when CIS is fully set up and functional, it's GREAT!

Gunter, I think the mechanics did most of that stuff for me, fixing the CIS that is. I'm hoping I wouldnt need to touch it anymore. And hopefully the mechanic knew what he was doing and torqued the head studs to the appropriate amount.

dshepp, Haven't had a chance to check the oil yet but I might go and do that now, I'm guessing about 5-10 minutes of warm up time should be appropriate to check it? And I will need to research the system extensively to see what I can learn, and if i'm useful at all.

The engine turns over fine with the new battery, sorry for the dodgy explanation before.

Thanks everyone for the input, hopefully there's more to come. I love this board!

Peter

[T77911S]

you have a lot of different options as where to start since there is really not a lot to go on.
how does it run once it is warmed up?
does it pop and back fire once running, if so, do you have a pop off valve?
if you do not, first thing is the posiblity of a cracked air box.

slow to start:
first the basic tune up, plugs cap rotor and points, but i assume that has been done.
control pressure (CP) wrong. hard to start i might say high CP, making lean which makes it hard to start when cold.
mixture could be wrong, again too lean
timing-
cold start valve (CSV)- provides extra fuel for cold starts
then the ever popular and everyones favorite friend- air leaks. CIS is very senstive to air leaks.

since you said everything was gunked up, the plunger in the fued distributor(FD) could be stuck. remove the air filter, turn the key on, reach in on the left side and gently raise the plunger. you should feel resistance imediately, ther should be no movement before the resistance. you should also hear an audible squeel from the injectors as they spray fuel. hold it for a few seconds, then try to start it.
you could aslo have gunk in the screen on the warm up regulator (WUR) raising the CP making it hard to start.
you could even pull all the injectors and check for spray, but then again, that depends on warm running.

if you dont know much about CIS, go here- http://members.rennlist.com/jimwms/CIS/CIShome.html
and do some reading. its a good place to start.

[Walter_Middie]

I'm guessing about 5-10 minutes of warm up time should be appropriate to check it?

Yes 5 to 10 minutes would be good - but please, don't just start it and let it idle for that long. Drive it around for a few minutes. It's not good for the engine to sit and idle.

Normal starting procedure for these cars is to raise the hand throttle on every start, crank for about 1 second, then it should start and run fairly well. Anything else means you have issues.

[peter_soj]

Took the car for a drive today...sorry to say that im VERY angry with the results from the car. I don't think the mechanics did anything other than get the car running...at a less than acceptable level.
The car idles fine, it'll sit there idling all day, with a few revs as well, so we decided to take it for a drive. Clutch is still bad, but fairly driveable, went for about 2 minutes and smoke started pouring from the exhaust again. Gave it a bit of throttle in second, not to shabby, only problem was the smoke. The car was running fairly fine just with the smoke, and went from 1st to 2nd, normal throttle the car accelerated normally for a second or two and then started to choke on something, all power just went and the engine almost cut out, but stayed on, and went back to normal.
This is when we turned back and went home, it did it again after turning a corner, except stayed on, then stopped at some lights and it idled alright from what I could tell. Got into the driveway, slowed down to get over the curb, engine died. Tried starting it again, nothing. Starter just turned it over.

Hopefully someone can provide some feedback, If only I was lucky enough to have an engine without fault.

Any other info you might need please say, i'll try and answer as fast as I can. Thanks to anyone who replies

Peter

[slodave]

Have you checked the oil level yet? Your post from 5/21 mentioned that you would.

[ruf-porsche]

Now that it doesn't start check for spark and gas. Once you determine which of these two component is missing, you can determine what is the problem.

I'm guessing it no gas, and you probably need a new fuel pump.

CIS is not crap. I only use my PORSCHE 6 months out of the year and my car always start, idles fine and has plenty of power. Car is completely stock including no hydraulic tensioner, not backfire valve.

[Fishcop]

Peter, are you using a reputable Porsche shop? The CIS is not what's on the run of the mill Commodore or Falcon...

[peter_soj]

Slodave, sorry for being such a slacker and not mentioning it. I didn't really have a good chance to check the oil, I checked it when the car was idling before we went for a drive, and it was at "min". Thats when we decided to take it for a drive so that we could get a decent oil level reading. And the car had stalled when we got back, so after pushing it up the driveway into the garage, I took the oil level and it was about half way between min and max. But I wasn't sure if this was an accurate reading considering the car was not running when I took it.

Ruf-porsche, I haven't tried to start the car since it stalled, it just didn't start immediately after stalling. I will probably try tomorrow and will have another update then. And as I said, I also believe that CIS can be a great system.

Fishcop, the place is called "Autoart" and only works on Porsche's, so we figured that it would be a reputable shop, but didn't do any background checks or research opon the particular shop.

I'm sure there's more I can add but I have to cut it short, I'm at my cousins house and he wants to use the laptop.

Thanks again for everyones help.

Peter

[Fishcop]

Hi Peter

Here's a link to the Aussie Pelican forum - specifically the thread containing all the well known mechanics around the place. Australian/ New Zealand Porsche Resources - Contact Details & Other Information

Personally, I think that given you've spent money with Auto Art, they should not fob you off with "CIS is crap" - as Porsche specialists they should be more than competent to work on your car. Having said that, some faults can be VERY hard to pin down and there is a compromise between how much you spend fixing vs replacement of the system (new CIS/carburettors) and good mechanics should keep you apprised of progress.

Approach Auto Art and explain that you're not happy with the results and give them an opportunity to revisit their work and for them to provide a written diagnosis and cost estimate of what they think it will take to remedy. Brace yourself, it could be hideous. One of the guys up here running a 3.0 Carrera had a terrible time with his CIS, it took 12 months and mucho $$ replacing everything before he was happy (ended up being the fuel distributor and pressure lines). In hind sight I think he would have fitted PMO carbies for $3k.

Armed with Auto Art's diagnosis and estimate, get some second and third opinions from other mechanics and make an informed decision on what you want to do.

FWIW, you can pick up a nice pair of webers for less than $2k

Cheers