Car care tools question, buffing experts please give opinions.

rnln · 04:02 PM

What are the differents between the 2 tools below? I have the (1) type. I got it years ago to polish aluminum. It does a great job but 8 out of 10 times I use it to buff cars, I burned/grind some paint. I tried to go slow but I couldn't. It seem to go too fast for me. That's why I have not touched it for a long while.
On (2), I know it is cheaper, and slower, and great to spread polish/wax around the surface, but can it do the paint buffing job? If it does, maybe it can save me to burning/grinding on my paint?
Thanks.
(1) http://thm-a02.yimg.com/image/65685b1dfc7d4f3e
(2) http://thm-a01.yimg.com/image/1fccdaf80dc1e4e4

Oh Haha · 06-21-2009, 05:01 PM

I'm not an expert but I do my own detailing.

#1 is the tool for using cutting compounds, polish that are formulated to be used with a buffing wheel. After wet sanding is the time for this baby.

#2 is an orbital buffer. This really is only used to remove wax or polish. It won't work well with polishing compounds. It's a great time saver but I don't usually get it out unless I'm doing the van.

Speed is a critical factor with #1. If you don't have variable speed then you cannot control the process and you really need to do that.

One trick that I have found with these is to just stay the heck away from edges at all costs. Do them by hand.
There is a technique to using these that is tough to describe. I don't use much of the "face" of the pad except when spreading out the liquid. I then use the outside edges to "work" the paint.
I stop when the compound is no longer visible.

I hope this helps you a bit.

My cars may not be show cars but the paint shines like a MoFo!!

m110 · 06-21-2009, 05:06 PM

(1) is a ROTARY polisher
(2) is a DUAL ACTION ie orbital buffer

The first used is with materials (polish/glaze etc) to attain an aggressive degree of "cut". Wet sanding to 2000 would be even higher so it is used on surfaces with significant surface abnormalities (scratches you can deliniate with the naked eye) It works by generating heat from the friction of the pad and the particular compound used. Some have particles that are essentially smashed into the paint and disintigrate. For this reason it is relatively easy to burn some kinds of paint. If you don't keep the buffer moving, hit a high spot, or are running a really aggressive pad or have the RPM too high (I keep my Makita at nearly the lowest end) These machines are also used for grinding metal and that's what the high RPM settings are for. They are tricky to use to get it right. Experience is the only way to get comfortable. I notice you are in CA. Mequiar's and Chemical brothers both have free demos and workshops in SoCal...find someone to show you or go to one. I used to own a detail shop and I'm still learning.
(2) Has an orbital path: there are two axes of rotation; a small one of usually a few cms that rotates around one (usually randomly) that is 10cm or so. The path of the pad is variable and thus less likely to leave a swirl mark but also less able to really grind on paint when you need it, thus it is used for final polishing. It is also used for applying final coats of sealant or wax. Pads or bonnets are very fine (microfiber or fine foam usually).

Both machines really just speed things up for you. You can really do it all by hand on older softer enamel paints but nowadays on clearcoats it is tougher. These machines save you elbow grease big time. Point being only use them when you need to.

juan ruiz · juan ruiz's Garage

The first one is a high speed buffing machine, a tool that if not used properly will indeed burn your paint surface. (mainly due to the speed of the tool)

The second one is a buffing "wannabe" tool that lacks the speed, pad selection and correct movement to accomplish anything worth your time.

Some of today's tools are the Flex, Ultima and the most popular is the Porter Cable and the new generation of them. All of them are safe to use.

The Porter Cable 7424 dual-action car polisher started the pro-consumer car polisher market life more than a decade ago, the Porter Cable 7424 is the industry standard which is a dual-action car polisher. A machine that operates by orbiting the polishing pad around a center spindle while the pad freely spins on its own axis. A counterweight on the opposite side of the center spindle dampens vibration for smooth operation. The tool head action, often called orbital, prevents the creation of holograms (symmetrical buffing marks), paint burns and other forms of paint damage often associated with high-speed buffing machines.

The polishing action of a dual-action polisher closely mimics that of circular hand polishing. With this tool(s) many different foam pads can be used, they all come in many sizes designs and colors, the color is the industry standard rule of thumb for a certain job, all do recently more and more colors are appearing in the market.

Yellow Foam Pad- Use for Heavy duty Compound
Orange Foam Pad- Use for Light duty compound
Green Foam Pad- Use for Compound/Polish
White Foam Pad- Use for Polish
Black Foam Pad- Use for machine Glaze
Blue Foam Pad- Use for Polish/Sealant

Those are the most popular ones when using such of tool; With brand new foam pads we like to spray a very light mist of water or spray detailer, only when they are brand new pads. I personally like to start with a speed of 4 and from there work up to the speed # 6 but I do most of the work at 4.

I believe this is a personal preference same as the machine in use, products, pad brand and technique, I also recommend to run the Porter Cable power core through the shoulder to avoid any contact with the work area and surface area.

I hope this helps

, the Porter Cable can be found in any large store such as Home Depot etc, you will need the pads and the backing plate.

rnln · 06-21-2009, 11:14 PM

Thanks everyone for information.
My comming up question is that when you said Dual-action or Orbital, do you mean the way the air grinder tool work? One of these: http://thm-a02.yimg.com/image/f965b2f7e811d75c. If this do the same work, I rather use this because it's lighter, and can be adjusted to spin slower.

Another question, when buffing, do you press on it, just let it lay on the paint surface, or lift it up a little not to have it pay too hard on the paint surface?

Oh Haha,
It does have multiple speed settings but even with the lowest setting, it's still burn something sometimes. Basically, I have been doing most like what you said but still. The worst part of it gives me is that some areas is too much, and some is too less. I could not get it to even out. This is why I am thinking of a little "less" machine for me. maybe a little slower = a little better.

skrufy · 06-22-2009, 01:25 AM

Hi-

Dittos on much of the info presented above- I am not a professional by any means, but I do a pretty damn good job of it, and still manage to do something stupid that I have to fix.... like mentioned above, run an air line or electric cord over your shoulder, and I use an old athletic sock over the air couplings to prevent scratching your work..... besides, this is another excuse to buy tools

I just finished prepping, painting, finishing, putting back together my '77 930 sunroof Coupe- Dupont Chromabase system in Grand Prix white. Pretty extensive re-do: inside of hoods, engine compartment, wheel wells, door jambs, sunroof well, all new rubber, dash, headliner, re-dye/finish of factory white leather, new a/c hoses etc..... this is my fourth Porsche that I have done-

I have burned edges with the best of them after spending hours wet sanding then compounding, buffing, etc... lots of yelling/screaming......

This time I did it different- lots of homework as it had been about 15 years since my last one- and it works real well- go to this youtube site for 3Ms new? Perfect-It 3000 system of DRY SANDING with up to 1500 grit, and then wet sanding- with water out of a spray bottle, with a 3000grit foam pad, which pretty much polishes up everything before you even start to compound, etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-Yc6fZfjo

this youtube page has links to other 3M demos- all designed for pro shops....

I used their Series 3000 compounds and polishes/glaze..... I used a Porter Cable DA
orbital polisher- air driven (eats a lot of air for my small Speedaire compressor...) along with Duponts Hookit (comes in Hookit I and II- the II is the latest, but they make the I stuff for the older velco pads... so choose which system you want...) pad holders and foam pads..... the Hookit pads come with the velcro backing all the way across the back of the pad- BIG TIP from a custom hot rod guy I met: the pads are about an inch thick- take scissors and snip off about a half inch of the stiff velco backing and foam from the edge of the pad so that you now have a 45 degree angle - buffing up against
dips, vents, etc won't scratch or score from the velcro edge......

Using a DA and these foam pads make in nearly impossible to burn an edge when finishing

..... if you are still in a close corner, etc and are afraid of bumping into the next panel/edge, etc- get some of 3Ms blue plastic auto tape (NOT painters tape from Lowes etc)- and tape the last few mm to the panel edge- you can still use the foam pads right up to/over the tape- the peel it off and finish the edge by hand....

Since the DA is going much slower, it doesn't generate the heat- AND- it doesn't splatter the compounds all over the place like a traditional rotating buffing pads does-
I finished the 930 in my garage over the winter with minimal cleanup.....

Get some of 3Ms yellow finishing cloths- about $5-7 each or $25ish for a pack of 6- can't scratch, are washable/last forever- forget t-shirts- save them for the family SUV......

Other tid bits: if you're going to use the dry sanding sheets- buy them by the box of 50- individually- they are 80-95cents each, and they only last a couple of minutes, depending on how hard your paint is and how much orange peel you have to get rid of- take your time- use 1200 and 1500, and I only went as low as 1000 grit in a couple of places because of orange peel- lots of clear, but I took a knowing chance and shot paint outside when it was cold and about to snow..... for getting rid of deeper to routine scratches, you might just try going right to the 3000grit foam pad, then compounding if you are not planning on a total repaint..... if wet sanding, NEVER EVER use 600-800 grit, you'll never IMHO- get the scratches out, and 99% sure fire burn thru the clear into the color, or color into the primer....-start with 1200 min, then 1500, and the finest wet/dry paper I've found is 2000, and these sheets don't last a long time either.... they? make electric DAs, but I've never used one- have seen them in the Griot's Garage catalog....

Here is DuPonts product manual, and I think the Hookit pad info is in there somewhere:

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/b/dr/s/product/chromasystem.html

you can also do an ebay motors search for the paint/finishing stuff- the online guys usually beat the local Finishmaster/Paint stores....

I am not employed by Dupont/3M- their stuff works for me- if you want more info- email! my 2 cents

Tim

Rols 912 · 06-22-2009, 04:04 AM

http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/

rnln · 06-22-2009, 09:36 AM

wow, lot of info to degest.
Thank you very much.

Oh Haha · 06-22-2009, 04:17 PM

rnln--It sounds like you need to some practicing with the buffing wheel.
Maybe you have an old panel or a vehicle that you use for practice.
NEVER leave the buffer in one spot for than a second or 2. Your hands need to be moving it all of the time.

I've been detailing my own cars plus family member's for many years but up until I got the 911 I didn't have the finesse. I was extra careful with that paint and in the process found the technique that gets me the best results.

m110 · 06-22-2009, 07:06 PM

I would agree that hours spent on Autopia is a good idea. Keep in mind that there is a bias towards boutique items--not unlike this site. A previous poster suggested 3M products which I wholly endorse (05996 and 05997 and imperial hand glaze) but these are commercial products when used with machine and not the easiest to use for a beginner.
Where do you live? If you have an interest a workshop would be a good idea. Hacking away will give you experience but some expert instruction will be well worth it. Detailing one's car well is really satisfying. It's not up to par with rebuilding a motor but it's something you can do any weekend for a few hours and a couple bucks.

rnln · 10:26 PM

Oh Haha, agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m110

If you have an interest a workshop would be a good idea.

I am, but too bad I am 7 hours drive from you. I wish I am closer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m110

Hacking away will give you experience but some expert instruction will be well worth it.

agree too.

At first, seeing people moving their arms with the machine around, I thought it's a good idea to get the prof one for multiple purpose but after several tries (I tried it multiple times on multiple cars but none came out the way I wanted) I agree that I should either get an amateur one or more practice with this one.

Thanks all.

rnln · 07-05-2009, 11:26 PM

one more question. Will the DA do the buffing job after dry/wet sand, or the buffer (1) is a must for this job?

Oh Haha · 07-06-2009, 04:38 AM

You need to use a buffing wheel after wet sanding.

The dual action is really only intended to remove wax/polish.

rnln · 07-06-2009, 09:06 PM

Since you said "buffing wheel", I just think I can get some fine foam wheel on the same machine (1). It won't burn the paint as those wool wheel. Ah... stupid me.
Thanks guys.

look 171 · 07-06-2009, 11:59 PM

ok, so I have to ask, what's the difference between polish, glaze, sealant and wax? Is it done in that order? Mand made wax or natural? I have gone through a couple of detailers, and found that they do not do too good of a job. How do they get the paint so smooth and clean like the custom rod guys?

911pcars · 07-07-2009, 12:50 AM

Some random thoughts:

Make sure the buffing machine speed is a 3000 rpm or less.

Use a foam bonnet. Unless you're experienced, it's easier to burn the paint using wool.

Use the proper cutting compound and polishing technique. Don't buff with a dry bonnet. Keep bonnet in motion, not in one place.

Practice on old body panels first. Use a dedicated foam bonnet for each grade of cutting compound.

Use the recommended product for the paint finish. Aggressive product will remove more paint material.

Pro detailers use Meguiers or 3M product.

Wet sand orange peel paint with 1600-2000 grit paper first before buffing.

Sherwood

Oh Haha · 07-07-2009, 03:50 AM

+1 on the foam pad.

I bought one to wheel out some scratches in my Grand Prix. The conter guy that sold em the paint suggested it's use. I was amazed at the difference versus wool. I need to get another for other compunds now.

I am taking my 911 to my hometown for a classic car festival this weekend so I am going over the panels with the foam pad on the buffer with Finesse-it glaze, then 3M hand glaze, and finally Zymol.

My paint is not anywhere near perfect but the deep and glossy shine makes it look much better.