Hints for handling transaction for overseas 911 sale?
 

I have a tentative sale working for the sale of my 911 to a customer in Germany. He has stated his shipper would be picking up, and making the payment for, the car at it's location here in the States. Does anyone with experience with this have any suggestions about anything I should know or be aware of in such a transaction? Acceptable method of payment? Legal documents to be aware of?

Assuming the sale is agreed on, I just want everything to go smoothly at time of the exchange of car and payment... Comments/suggestions welcome.

payment
 

Has he tried to pay you more than you were asking ? If so,RUN.Did he try to get you down on the price at all?
How is the shipper going to pay you? a check ? cash ? can you be sure either are real ?
The best way for him to Wire Transfer the payment to your bank account.
Then he can have it picked up,you mail the title to him and then go to DMV to get it out of your name.

Jim - The way I read this, you have a legit buyer, not some internet flake?

My buddy just went thru this with a sale to Australia.

Make sure the funds are wired to your account before the car leaves the US. A direct wire transfer is best, my bank charges a $20 fee.

The biggest issue is to satisfy Customs. They will want the: the title, registration, you ID, etc. They may want to see original documents - check with the importing country.

Also, don't ship the title with the car, mail it on ahead unless customs requires it to accompany the paperwork package. G'luck.

+1 wire transfer. Cashier's checks don't count anymore. Not ever.

If he is legit he will prefer wire transfer as well.

customs
 

You shouldn't have to deal with customs at all,unless the buyer has never done this before and he's asking you to,which,you still should not get involved with.He will need someone to do the paperwork for customs,You may need to send the title to them instead of him.Otherwise YOU will be the one jumping through hoops.....

+2 on the wire transfer.

I've spent considerable money with you guys over in the States an never had an issue. I do "haggle" :) but I accept the cost of shipping is my issue, as is any customs problems. Customs issues should really only be at the buyer's end (unless you're selling State treasures or mailing currency).

Cheaper stuff is easily handles with Visa/Mastercard (for vendors) or Paypal for private transactions, but anything more than a few k should be done using wire/eftpos as it is instant and the buyer can see they have clear funds. The $20 charged to buyer and seller by the bank can be negotiated, but it is way cheaper than the % increase the other options cost.

Personally, and for the relatively inexpensive flights, I'd be inclined to turn up -view the car- and pay the owner in person. And I'm talking big ticket items here though. I'd also probably consider trusting one of you guys as an independent to view the car and offer opinion... someone cynical like Randy Webb or Milt ;)

He is offering below the asking price.

The subject of how he plans to pay hasn't been covered yet.

As noted, several others are suggesting the same method of payment. Does anyone know how this works between countries? Bank guarantees?

The state the car is in, Alabama, does not require a title on Year Models 1974 and older (it's a '74). Only a bill of sale is required. I do have the title from the state the car was purchased from. I don't know whether is going to be a stumbling block for a sale to Germany.

From LakeCleElum
Is there a way to tell for sure?;) Seriously, the interchanges so far have been brief enough that I am just having to assume that he is serious...

Thanks to all for the responses. The votes are in favor of a wire transfer. This thought didn't really occur to me...

Wire Transfer is the way to go. I sold an old British sports car to the Prime Minister of Kuwait that way. No issues. He can't reverse the transaction.

Definitely insist he transfers the cash to a bank account a few days before any shipper turns up. Everything else beyond that is his problem. There are plenty of shippers out there who will do his paperwork etc for him.

You are selling your car at a discount, end of story. If it gets any more complicated than selling to a guy in the next town, I would tell him to clear off. I would also want mucho contact details now and more than a few brief emails.

This is speaking as someone who just bought a car 5500 miles from me. The last one was 4 countries away. Picking up the one before that was a full day's driving!

I have not sold a car to an overseas customer however at work I move money internationally almost every day. For the buyer to wire you the money you will need to provide the following:

SWIFT address
ABA number (routing number)
Account number
Account name
Name of bank
Address of bank

No bank guarantee should be required as long as you do not part company with the car before you receive the money. Cheers, John

Almost forgot, if you want to be extra safe set up a dedicated account for receiving the funds and move the money to your regular account as soon as it is received. Someone in the international banking community recommended this to me some time back since the details you provide to the payor are all they need to pull money out of your account. Cheers, John

sold an early car to a gentleman in sweden. he transferred the funds several weeks before the car was pickedup for export. one of the easiest transactions i have ever participated in.

Guys,

Many thanks to all of you that have put in your recommendations so far, particularly John (kiwiokie) for the details on data needed for the transfer, and the suggestion for setting up a separate account.

If the sale and subsequent transaction goes through, I'll report back.

When I sold my car to a buyer in Holland recently, he trusted me more than I trusted him. We exchanged numerous emails and I provided photos in response to his queries. He called me several times, and I asked him for references for prior purchases in the US, which he provided. After we agreed on a price and terms, he wired the funds directly to me (I set up a new account to accept the wire, as I didn't want to give him my regular account number). Once I was comfortable that the wire was confirmed and irretrievable by him, I delivered the car to his shipper. I was a little uncomfortable with an international wire and spoke to my bank about it at length. Since my buyer has other purchases in the US, and had some contacts here in the form of family and an established shipper, it was my initial preference to receive payment through one of them, but this was going to take too long and I didn't want to lose other prospective buyers. I had wanted a deposit in order to hold the car and reflect the buyer's commitment, and we tried to do this via PayPal for $500, but PayPal ended up putting a hold on the funds for some reason (which made me a bit more suspicious). Ultimately, he sent a wire for the full amount and a copy of his wire confirmation from his bank, and that was enough for me to take the car off the market pending receipt of the funds (which took four or five days). I would be skeptical about releasing the car until you validate that the funds are good and can not be charged back by your bank - I came to the conclusion that an international wire was best for this purpose. Cashier's check is still subject to clearance, which can take days or weeks if it is drawn on a non-US bank.

Thanks for the details of your experience, particularly the information that an international wire transfer could take 4-5 days. That could be an important factor in the planning cycle, should this sale actually come to pass.

You should definitely speak to your bank about the timing and clearance of an international wire.

I sold a car to a gentleman in Europe. He insisted on looking at it before payment. So he flew here, looked at the car, then called his bank to wire the money to a new account I set up. Everything went pretty well except the money took a couple of days before it showed up in my account. He almost had to extend his stay. So the moral of the story is, wire transfers take a couple of days. Plan accordingly.

Here's a follow-up to the sale of my '74 911 S to Germany...

After making the agreement, the buyer asked for a bill of sale. I found out through a little research, that this is a legitimate request. (It's called a proforma document, only signifying the intent of the seller to sell once the seller receives payment.)

So I sent it by mail. After a considerable wait, it showed up and the buyer said he would send a wire to his agent, then the agent would wire me the payment. It's been almost 3 weeks, and the shipper says he has not received the funds. I have emailed the buyer several times, sometimes getting no response; his only reply so far was that there must be a mistake somewhere. Whereupon I gave him the choice of sending some proof that the wire had actually been sent to his agent, or I was cancelling the deal. No reply from him in 5 days.

So I have lost almost a month by telling folks the car was sold...

No real moral to this story, just thought I'd follow up. I've about decided to keep the '74 and wait for a live buyer to show up...

What's up with Europeans buying Porsche's in the states? Is the dollar that weak?

I just sold mine to a guy from Munich, showed up with CASH and took the car. Smooth transaction.

It's not a weak dollar. It's the combination of the fact that we got the lion's share of early production and so many of the cars haven't survived over there. It's simple supply and demand. We have more of them than they do, so they are willing to pay more for them than we are.

I was just sent pictures of my 1970 911T that I sold last year. It was fully restored and returned to it's original color. It sold to an end user in Germany for just shy of 40,000 Euros. This is a car I paid a couple grand for in 2005, and sold for $8600 in 2008. It was a nice little car with very little rust to start with and didn't need a ton of metal work to make it right. The final selling price represent their market more than the work required to the car.

Wire transfer takes minutes. I'd bail on the buyer. Send him certified copy of cancellation of bill of sale.

Just to say that this can sometimes happen. The receiving bank accepts the transfer, but doesn't disburse the funds to the account.

In my case, I inadvertently wired funds to an account that had been closed for 3 years, and the bank did not reject or return the funds.

After 3 weeks getting nowhere (receiving bank won't talk to you as you're not a customer, and your bank says "the money was sent"), I initiated a trace on the funds, and they were back in my account in about 3 hours...

Doesn't look good for your transaction though. Sorry.

Jim, so far it sounds all good to me in the first place. The bigger shipping companies in Germany provide you as a customer that kind of service. picking the car up, handle the transaction and deliver it to your doorstep.

Important part is that based on where you live a clean title or a bill of sales needs to be provided. Without it the buyer won't get the car out of the country. I'm german & living in Germany, I already bought a couple of cars over the last years in the US.

I'll did all kinds of described ways of payments, wire, paypal or in cash, depening on value and knowing the party you deal with. If you like I can check your potential buyer out... I really love paypal, allthough when it comes to cars I used to fly over and pay cash. At least I want to know what I'm exactly buying...

The dollar is weak, allthough it had been weaker, based on the bigger market alot of cars where exported and so the prices are a bit lower. When it comes to the old ones the sometimes better climate saves you thousands of dollars.

Dirk

Hugh R -
I've been told that overseas wire transfers can take a few days to go through. I'm willing to accept a few days, but not a few weeks, which is how long we're talking here.

Spuggy-
I can believe that there can be mistakes made. As a matter of fact, I was told a similar story to yours by a personal friend. The larger problem here is (lack of) communication. The buyer is not responding. Five days and counting to answer an email? And how much effort could it be for him to simply say " I have a tracer on it."?

Dirk-
I appreciate the input from a German, living in Germany... I must say that did a good amount of checking before I agreed to the email offer I received on this car, and have learned a great deal.

First, I agreed to an offer on the car at a somewhat lower price than I consider it to be worth, but could use the extra cash for another project. Since I thought I understood the process, I had hoped this would not evolve into the lengthy time this is taking. And the buyer apparently feels it is not important to him to keep me informed of progress.

I have had all the documentation ready for weeks - title, registration, bill of sale - already discussed with the buyers shipper here in the US, no problem there. The wire transfer was to come to the shipper here in the US, who would in turn wire the funds to my bank account.

I was offered no information about the buyer, other than a first name, and who to make the bill of sale to - three capital letters beginning with "A" (rest withheld by me). I had to do "Google Research" to find the company, and finally tied this to the email address the buyer is using. (Oh well, as a hint, the last two letters of three are "HK".) I appreciate your offer to check them out; if you live anywhere near Solingen, drop in and pay Steve a visit. If you learn anything about where my payment could be tied up, and when I should expect it, please let me know.:confused:

Hey Jim,

I taked to you about this car before I found my SC. I was sure you'd have sold it by now.
I think you're just getting some sort of run around. If I was ready to pull the trigger on something I really wanted - assuming this guy does - then I would at least keep your email box supplied with info. And, I woud be mucho PO'd that some bank had misdirected my funds, etc.

Quote: "And the buyer apparently feels it is not important to him to keep me informed of progress." And then there was the part about the lack of personal information on him After he commits to being your buyer. Why, I wonder? Is he just that arrogant? Does he think you're desperate for the money and believes he can jerk you around however he sees fit? Or is it a situation where he has so much money that these "little" transactions aren't worth handling immediately? Who really knows but him?

All this would make me very leary, indeed. And I think I would cancel the whole deal as fast as possible 'cause like you said, you're losing the potential to sell to someone else with each passing day.

Good luck!

--Jeff

The internet is full of flakes unfortunately, they are not just confined to the US. Jim, it sounds like you have had your chain jerked pretty good. This is always my concern when selling a car other than in person. When I sold my 72T several months ago, I received numerous calls and emails. Several people said "I'll take it" but my attitude, having experienced this before, was "Show me the money." I'm trying to sell an E-type, and had a call from a well-known classic Jag dealer (in Arizona) who wanted the car for a client. I sent him paperwork confirming a deal, and he promised to wire money in 48 hours. Nothing. No call to say the client wasn't interested, no email, just silence. I understand that circumstances change. I am always confounded by people who are eager, friendly and earnest in their desire to buy a car, but then fall off the face of the earth without even the courtesy of a email to say that they are no longer interested after they appear to commit. In my case, I guess I was lucky. I insisted on getting the buyer's name and references to check him out. I spoke with his shipper beforehand. More importantly, I also indicated that if I didn't have payment for the car, it would remain for sale. Hope the next one works out better!

I just visited their website and noticed something that could be of interest/relevance. If you look closely at the pictures of the cars they have on offer, they appear to be the ones provided by the people they purchased the cars from. I even recognize a car in a relatively well known garage up in Wyoming that's full of Porsches (and was written up in Total 911 last year). I wonder if they are trying to pre-sell the cars before they actually take delivery of the vehicles.

This is purely speculation but what if the delay on your payment is that they've trying to close a buyer and get payment on your car before they pay you? They don't appear to be a restoration shop and more of a flipper so it's not beyond the realm of the possible.

Also, since I didn't add my 2 cents on my first post, I always require bank wire in advance of shipment for the cars that I sell overseas. I've sold a few to England and Germany in the last couple of years and that's how I've done it every time. It's always gone off without a hitch, though there was a 2 week delay from one well known restoration shop, but they eventually came through. But with that much distance, I would never release a car without cash in the bank. No checks. No credit cards. No Pay Pal. Those are all reversable. Cash in my account is a lot harder for them to take back from me.

A guy did that to me with a boat. Said he was buying, then delayed while he tried to find a buyer in Europe. After a few days, I told him it was back on the market, first cash would get it.

Sound like this guy is a European flipper.

Thanks Matt,

The thought that this guy might be a flipper has all the earmarks of sounding like the case. Of course, that in itself really doesn't bother me that much, but the idea that I am being yanked around until the buyer has a sale on his end, or is trying to achieve one before he actually sends me the payment, is good reason for me to pull the plug.

By the way, the next planned event was the receipt by wire of the payment in full by my bank into a deposit-only account, and the subsequent transfer out of that account into another account within the same bank. So there was never a time where I considered releasing the car or any paperwork on the car, until the funds were received.

I think his time has just run out...

A real shame but you have crooks everywhere not just around here. The dollar is really very low and as mentioned before the supply of reasonable cars is drying-up rapidly around here. Good luck with the sale.