Anyone know the CIS specs for a Euro 3.0 motor

[rpmoore2]

if they're different for ROW... I have someone helping me tomorrow for testing my starting problem. When the car is cold what should the CP be. Then warm.
Then when I shut off the car what should the residual pressure be. I have the same starting problem hot or cold. Thanks

[rpmoore2]

Also I'm looking for part sources for my ROW 3.0 in the US. Cross my fingers my warm-up regulator and FD are okay.

[longhornchris04]

Sorry I can't help with the specs, but I do have good news. You could save a bunch of money on your car insurance... never mind.

On a serious note, if you can't find a source for your WUR and it is in fact busted (fingered crossed that it isn't), the UTCIS Digital WUR should do the job. You'll need the specs to program it correctly, but it should be able to mimic any CIS WUR regardless of year or make.

Good luck.

[don gilbert]

wur and f/d can be repaired, most just need to be taken apart and cleaned.

[Oracle]

The Euro CIS is basically the same (the FD is different) and so the test procedure is exactly the same.
The residual pressure is controlled by the accumulator (this component is not US/ROW spec). Search and you will find the test procedure step by step... Seriously I hope your FD is not FU cause the Euro version of it you won't find it rebuilt.. brand new is $1500
In my car the plunger was stuck due to rust and the mechanic cleaned it (I don't know exactly what he did)

[euro911sc]

Yeah... FD is not easily found. Even cores. There is a great thread on here where a guy took his completely apart and cleaned and re-sealed it. I'm not that brave... rather I do not have $1500 to burn if I FUBAR it.

As for the testing procedures, I'm pretty sure it is all the same. Fuel delivery volume might be a little different. the curves in the little spec book are the same though.

-Michael

[javadog]

You're going to have to tell the world exactly what motor you are working on. They built 3.0 ROW motors for 8 years and they are not all the same. The engine type number would be most helpful.

JR

[Gunter]

Before going into too many different directions, try simple things first like correct wiring and power to the various components.
For cold-start problems, wiring from Starter Solenoid to the Cold Start Valve (CSV) and Thermo Time Switch (TTS) Is it correct and working?
WUR-AAV-AAR-Decel. Valve working?
Does the WUR get power? Is the tiny screen in the top-line going to the FD clean?
Does the Auxillary Air Regulator (AAR) get power? Is the valve inside open when cold? Does is close completely when hot?

For hot start problems, the check valve in/on the pump as well as the acummulator is suspect.

Do you have the Bentley SC Repair Manual? If not, get it.

[rpmoore2]

First off a 81 3.0L; I have a 911SC Bentley Service manual. 930/10 is the stamping.


Regarding
For cold-start problems, wiring from Starter Solenoid to the Cold Start Valve (CSV) and Thermo Time Switch (TTS) Is it correct and working?
I was told yes We're not sure if the CSV actually works. The way I start the car is raise the AFS and I THINK I hear the CSV

WUR-AAV-AAR-Decel. Valve working?
I realize this is the #1 test I should start with-seems overwhelming to me

Does the WUR get power? Is the tiny screen in the top-line going to the FD clean?
Not sure

Does the Auxillary Air Regulator (AAR) get power? Is the valve inside open when cold? Does is close completely when hot?
I was told in the past my AAR is stuck closed

For hot start problems, the check valve in/on the pump as well as the acummulator is suspect.
I'm convinced this is my issue because the start up is the same hot or cold- The only difference with cold is the warm up idle does not stick at 1500+ rpm


At least I know the specs for the euro would be the same as the Us motor. So I'm good for now...

So any one in Milwaukee with a gauge and willing to teach me how to test my own CIS ..... My helper didn't work out today.


Again thanks for your replies.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by rpmoore2

At least I know the specs for the euro would be the same as the Us motor. So I'm good for now....

Err, no, ..the specs are different for US and ROW 1981 models.

Cold control pressure vaies with ambient temp. I'll give you the values
(in bar) for three differernt temps and you can interpolate to whatever temp you need:

For WUR 911.606.105.09, Bosch no. 0438.140.089
Testing vacuum 450-550 mbar (340-420mmHg)


61F 1.35-1.75
68F 1.6-2.0
75F 1.85-2.25

Warm control pressures.:

2.7-3.1 w/o vacuum
3.4-3.8 w/ vacuum

System pressure:

4.5-5.2 testing
4.7-4.9 adjusting

Leak test 1.3 after 10 minutes
Leak test 1.1 after 20 minutes

Fuel injector opening pressure

2.5-3.6

JR

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by rpmoore2

First off a 81 3.0L; I have a 911SC Bentley Service manual. 930/10 is the stamping.


Regarding
For cold-start problems, wiring from Starter Solenoid to the Cold Start Valve (CSV) and Thermo Time Switch (TTS) Is it correct and working?
I was told yes We're not sure if the CSV actually works. The way I start the car is raise the AFS and I THINK I hear the CSV

You wouldn't be able to hear it during cranking. It needs to be checked electrically with engine not running.

WUR-AAV-AAR-Decel. Valve working?
I realize this is the #1 test I should start with-seems overwhelming to me

Without testing the components, how do you expect to solve the problem?

Does the WUR get power? Is the tiny screen in the top-line going to the FD clean?
Not sure

Well, just open the line and look inside

Does the Auxillary Air Regulator (AAR) get power? Is the valve inside open when cold? Does is close completely when hot?
I was told in the past my AAR is stuck closed

So, why not swap it for one that works?

For hot start problems, the check valve in/on the pump as well as the acummulator is suspect.
I'm convinced this is my issue because the start up is the same hot or cold- The only difference with cold is the warm up idle does not stick at 1500+ rpm

It wouldn't with the AAR stuck closed!


At least I know the specs for the euro would be the same as the Us motor. So I'm good for now...

So any one in Milwaukee with a gauge and willing to teach me how to test my own CIS ..... My helper didn't work out today.

Test/replace the above items first; System- and control pressures can be tested as well

Again thanks for your replies.

Have fun.

[tonypai]

rpmoore2

I had starting problems and it turned out to be a bad WUR, the shop rebuilt it to Euro specs and that fixed the issue. There are many threads on here that can help troubleshoot, bookmark the thread, read it, work on the car, come back and reread the thread. Repeat. A year later I learn something new every time I reread a thread.

Good luck and hope to see you after you get your car running. I'll be up at the Milwaukee Mile on Aug 2 running with the Chicago Audi club.

Tony

[rpmoore2]

So, why not swap it for one that works?

Can a AAR be rebuilt or can a US '78 or '79SC work with a ROW '81 3.0L?

And has anyone ever seen this pdf on K-Jetronic. http://http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/Bosch%20K-Jetronic%20Fuel%20Injection%20Manual%20-%20boschtech-12d.pdf

[Gunter]

First check the one you have cold and hot and make sure it gets power.
If you swap a AAR, it still needs to be checked to ensure it works.

AAR check cold:

Check the AAR located on the right side of the engine between 5-6 intake runner.
It's the item that has a small electric plug and a large vacuum hose connected to it.
Open the clamp holding the outside-hose.
Pry it off with the screwdriver just enough to get it out of the way so you can see into the opening.
Don’t worry about the Alu pipe; it’ll move enough.
With the help of a small mirror and a light, peek inside the AAR.
When COLD, you should see an opening in the slide shaped like a half-moon.
When HOT, the opening is completely closed.
If it isn't closed, the AAR is either kaput or doesn't get any power.
You can spray some WD-40 into the valve in case it is just sticky.
To check the power, carefully open the tiny clip on the plug with a very small screwdriver and pull it off.
The wire clip is tricky but necessary; don't yank it off.
Start the engine and check the plug for 12 V.
(One wire is power, the other (brown) is ground)
With power to the AAR, it should close after about 5 minutes.
If all is well, replace the hose and clamp securely.
Let me know if the AAR works HOT and COLD.

[rpmoore2]

Okay here is what is happening with my car.

As a recap the car takes 10 cranks to start cold ; around 5 warm. Once running the idle is not stable until the car warms up.... If I raise the AFS plate before I attempt to start the car, it fires right up.



I have some help now and the car is being tested. I don't have the fuel pressure #s other than they took the WUR part# and had the values to test with.

Well the mechanic is baffled. They are very respected Porsche specialists.

1. They tested the electrical first.
a. Apparently the wrong plugs were in the car. Don't have the details.
b. 2 of the wires are bad showing high resistance.
c. I assume the timing and the rest is okay although I have not confirmed this fact with them.

2. Fuel next
Here is what they have tested and they tell me are all okay. I haven't confirmed if they did any adjustments.

a. Cold control pressure.
b. Warm control pressure.
c. System pressure
d. Leak down
- pressure regulator is fine both the FD and WUR check valves
- Accumulator
- Fuel Pump check valve
f. Fuel flow from FD. Note I had new Fuel injectors last year. They didn't comment on the them.
g. TTS, Cold start valve; testing AAV in the morning. AAR to come. I asked him to check the TV.

3. They say there are no air leaks.

They're waiting to replace the spark plug wires before moving on. They
actually think the bad wires are contributing to the warm start-up problem.

They said they specifically tested the leak down of the pressure regulator,
fuel accumulator and fuel pump and they all checked out and were within specs.
Our last conversation was about the Fuel Pump. So here are my questions.

1. Can the fuel pump be slow to bring up pressure if it is old. Assuming the leak down is okay, is there a test that can be done to validate the time the system pressure builds up.

2. I still wonder if there is an air leak somewhere; maybe more pronounced when the motor is cold.

[javadog]

Apart from pressure, you can test the delivery volume of the fuel pump.

I'd suggest replacing the ignition wires with stock ones. Some of the aftermarket ones are junk, in my opinion.

Make sure the advance mechanism in the distributor is free. Lots of these cars get no distributor maintenance.

You said they used the WUR part numbers to come up with the appropriate test values for the pressures. Have they verified that all of the CIS components are the correct ones for that car and none of them have been replaced by components from a different engine type?

I see no mention of the CO. Has this been checked and set to the correct value?

JR

[rpmoore2]

Apart from pressure, you can test the delivery volume of the fuel pump.

I'd suggest replacing the ignition wires with stock ones. Some of the aftermarket ones are junk, in my opinion.

Make sure the advance mechanism in the distributor is free. Lots of these cars get no distributor maintenance.

You said they used the WUR part numbers to come up with the appropriate test values for the pressures. Have they verified that all of the CIS components are the correct ones for that car and none of them have been replaced by components from a different engine type?

I see no mention of the CO. Has this been checked and set to the correct value?

I will ask them about the advance in the distributor and whether stock wires are being installed.

The FD was already confirmed to be the Euro version. I'm not sure if the AFS is the right one or the AAR. He may have already confirmed this.

Once they put on the wires, they plan on adjusting the A/F ratio. Last year it was set just over 2.

One comment I should make is last year I fixed the safety circuit that would disable the pump. Thats when my starting problem started. So the story is some one jury rigged the fuel pump to make it run all the time. Car always started on first crank before.

I'm now wondering if there is a plugged screen in the fuel tank which is slowing the volume build up. Wouldn't the accumulator and pressure regulator compensate once the pressure does build up? Again my leak down values were ok.

Will the CSV open up with low fuel pressure? I am comparing this to the fuel injectors. He is checking the AAV today to make sure its operational.

Any thoughts on a possible air leak. I just think if the car started perfectly with the pump rigged before and now it doesn't suggests to me a fuel delivery problem.

[javadog]

Like I said, you can test for a fuel delivery volume. Removing the fuel line from the tank and checking/cleaning the screen is not hard, either. My feeling is that if you had a weak fuel pump, you noticed poor running at full throttle and high revs, not when you tried to start it.

If this began when you "rigged" the pump, maybe you should reverse what you did and fix what was causing the original problem.

When you are checking the correctness of the components, it's not enough for them to be the "Euro version." There were many versions of the 3 litre CIS engine in Europe and the components from one version to the next were not the same. Make sure they are EXACTLY what you need for your engine type, 930/10. I'd search this board for the specifics, as charts have been posted here before. I'd also make sure the tech has a copy of the Porsche spec book for the 911 from '78-'81. For this kind of repair, the Bentley manual can't be trusted.

Any injector will require a certain amount of pressure to open, so see the spec I posted above. I'd say it's worth checking the injectors, both for opening pressure and spray pattern. I know you said they were new last year but we don't have gas available now that is stable if stored for any length of time, so you might want to verify their condition if the car has sat for any length of time since they were installed.

JR

[rpmoore2]

I will follow up with the condition of the injectors and whether they tested the pump volume. I just don't think its the injectors. The car was stored this winter with stabilizer. When I started the car after storing I moved the AFS plate for a second. The car started right up. I didn't notice any running difference between the fall and spring.

Bottom line they suspect slow build up of pressure right now, then isn't that the function of the accumulator. Then shouldn't the CSV spray fuel, along with air from the AAV to assist in the start up. I agree after that it's the WUR's duty.

Again they checked out the leak down of the accumulator and the pressure was correct after 20 minutes.

So I once read in another thread air + fuel + spark = go.

Spark is getting fixed, fuel pressures check out and air is being checked today. So what's missing.

[rpmoore2]

Here is how it all started. I had a mess in my fuse panel too. The fuel pump relay was rigged.



I confirmed last year the euro FD. The shop confirmed yesterday a euro WUR. I didn't get the part# yet.



My camera takes bad pictures. Here is the engine #. The shop indicated they thought it was a "C". We just don't know the year of the motor. I think its an '81.



My wife says "C" stands for crap!