1976 911 with 80k help with offer please

[leftcoastal]

hello all,

First off I'd like to say what a great forum! I've been digging around the archives the last few days and there is quite a bit of info here.

I'm performing construction on a customers home who has a garage kept '76 2.7 with 80k original miles. I have been asked repeatedly to give an offer over the last year because the owner is thinking of donating it. Originally I thought the car was way out of my league (construction worker here). After reading through the archives and talking with local mechanics I'm now under the impression that these cars don't have a good resale value,but we're in a buyers market. Is there a possibility I could get into my childhood dream car?

Here's what I know about the car....I saw the car over a year ago in his garage and it hasn't moved since. The owner said it hasn't moved in a year (the neighbor thinks probably 3 or 4 years atleast) he'd said it started/ran great but needs a fuel pump and smog that is it. As far as I know the engine hasn't been rebuilt or retrofitted with new head studs,but the car has been babied and mainly driven on the weekends. The car was backed into (very lightly) and the owner demanded a new $5k paint job despite it being a ding. The paint looks pristine as does the interior (except the driver butt part of the seat needs recovering). All in all the car looks well taken care of,but needs to be towed to a reputable shop for a $300 PPI.

Are these engine makes only worthy of buying if you have knowledge and experience tinkering on them (or deep pockets for a mechanic)? And how would you guys approach a situation as such? a few local mechanics said offer a couple grand (despite the exterior/interior)but know it's a gamble while others have said these blocks are time bombs stay away unless you want to spend $5-10k on a rebuild. My thoughts are is the owner probably doesn't want to dump money into a fuel pump replacement and PPI when he's been thinking of donating it.

Please help I've been watching "No Mans Land" and having flashbacks of the first ride I had in my neighbors '77 911 he used to race in the 80's. btw if couldn't tell already I'm not a wrench.

[mpetry]

by all means get a PPI and then try to evaluate the owner, your level of comfort in fixing small things, and whether you're up for a "sporty game" on the engine that might be a time bomb or might run just fine for another 20K miles.

Just be warned - there are a lot of little things that a car this old will need - lubrication of throttle linkage, adjust shift coupler, electrical gremlins, etc etc. If you are not comfortable taking on at least some of these issues, a car like this can quickly eat your money, time and patience.

The good news is these cars are pretty simple and they respond really well to your efforts to fix the problems you encounter, and you get to make the car a little better every day! This is a good opportunity for you to gain confidence in your own ability as a mechanic, and I guarantee it will enhance your enjoyment of the car.

These mid-year cars have a less than great smog control setup (thermal reactors) and potentially troublesome magnesium engine cases/head studs. Get an assessment of the state of these things during your PPI and inspection, and then make a discounted offer based what you think your ownership will cost you in the first year.

Good luck with it.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA

[w21055]

Originally Posted by leftcoastal

hello all,

First off I'd like to say what a great forum! I've been digging around the archives the last few days and there is quite a bit of info here.

I'm performing construction on a customers home who has a garage kept '76 2.7 with 80k original miles. I have been asked repeatedly to give an offer over the last year because the owner is thinking of donating it. Originally I thought the car was way out of my league (construction worker here). After reading through the archives and talking with local mechanics I'm now under the impression that these cars don't have a good resale value,but we're in a buyers market. Is there a possibility I could get into my childhood dream car?

Here's what I know about the car....I saw the car over a year ago in his garage and it hasn't moved since. The owner said it hasn't moved in a year (the neighbor thinks probably 3 or 4 years atleast) he'd said it started/ran great but needs a fuel pump and smog that is it. As far as I know the engine hasn't been rebuilt or retrofitted with new head studs,but the car has been babied and mainly driven on the weekends. The car was backed into (very lightly) and the owner demanded a new $5k paint job despite it being a ding. The paint looks pristine as does the interior (except the driver butt part of the seat needs recovering). All in all the car looks well taken care of,but needs to be towed to a reputable shop for a $300 PPI.

Are these engine makes only worthy of buying if you have knowledge and experience tinkering on them (or deep pockets for a mechanic)? And how would you guys approach a situation as such? a few local mechanics said offer a couple grand (despite the exterior/interior)but know it's a gamble while others have said these blocks are time bombs stay away unless you want to spend $5-10k on a rebuild. My thoughts are is the owner probably doesn't want to dump money into a fuel pump replacement and PPI when he's been thinking of donating it.

Please help I've been watching "No Mans Land" and having flashbacks of the first ride I had in my neighbors '77 911 he used to race in the 80's. btw if couldn't tell already I'm not a wrench.

A non runnning 911 is a tough car to get into first. Expect to replace more smaller parts than you can think of.
In your post you say he does not want to pay for the PPI, as a buyer that will be your responsibility.
As far as value If the tub is in as good of shape as you say it is worth a couple of grand. The 2.7 gets a bad rap but if some of the upgrades have been done they are very reliable. They are known for pulling head studs from the block. The CIS system needs to be used so there will be some components that will not fair well from sitting that long.
If he can donate it, find out how much of a tax break he will get. If your offer can not match that keep looking there are plenty of deals out there right now. A PPI is a must if it is not running.


Good luck
Phillip

[Mat 71]

That's funny...I was thinking about watching No Man's Land tonight...been on my mind for a couple of weeks as I am in between PCars and bored!

Anyway...2.7...sitting...may need some attention. If you don't have the bills/reciepts for work done, than it may be a gamble as much as I know about that engine and the block. I think you are right about the rebuild of $5-8K.

My thought is to go in super low - $2-3K, and use the justification of the extra dollars you are going to have to spend to make it road worthy. Not the best idea to start the car after been sat for so long...however long that is. If you can get it going for another $1,500, which will also include you working on it a bit you are good. If you have to rebuild at some point, then your great body/interior just turned into a very new machine for approx $10-12K??? Maybe better than spending $10K on a car that hasn't been rebuilt, and may need it in the future. If you have it done, than you know that you are going to have a reliable PCar for years to come.

My .02cents and keep us posted!

Mat in Canada

[leftcoastal]

thanks for the replies guys...

forgive me but I was under the impression that the fuel pump had to be repaired to have a true inspection done...no? shouldn't the car be driven? one shop said they drive it for 100 miles to thoroughly test the car.

I am actually excited about getting some grease on my hands...it's funny a few blocks down from where I live I always see a guy working on his 70's 911 Porsche.

Philip, in California people who donate their cars get a tax break for the amount it is sold for.....from what I've researched guys are not selling any of their 70's let alone 80's 911's. Tough market and even tougher economy! What would be a fair offer?

Are there any common ailments you guys would be able to see if I took pics of the engine bay to maybe save me a PPI?

Matt, the one thing that is misleading to me is after a rebuild and being $12k into the car with the market how it is I'd think I'd be able to get a mid 80's 3.2 around that price...no? The 2.7 seems like it would have to be the ultimate enthusiast car...no resale and an expensive rebuild!

[SCWDP911]

Buy an SC and join the plot man!

[Mat 71]

I agree with getting into a 3.2...problem is, if it hasn't been rebuilt in the recent past, then you again may be faced with a potential rebuild or repair at some point. If you rebuild the 2.7... which you can do some funky stuff to them if I am not mistaken...replace CIS with carbs etc., then you will know for sure that you are driving a reliable, well sorted Porsche.

I think going low on an offer is the best idea. Go get the guy down the street who you see working on his and bring him to look at it??

If you can get pics, I am sure the guys on this site will give you tons of thoughts as to value!

Mat

[Mat 71]

BTW...is this a coupe or targa?

Mat

[TT Oversteer]

My reservations about this car would be CA smog laws. If it has the thermal reactors you will have to keep this system intact to pass smog and it's a very undesirable system.

If it were a 74 or 75 then you could mod the exhaust and/or install carbs and have a great running fun car. If the chassis is nice enough and the price nice enough you could sell the 2.7 and install a 3.2 and get it smogged by a CA smog referee station. This could add 5 to 10k to the price of the car depending on whether you do the conversion or pay someone to do it.

Bottom line, if you're not into wrenching I would look for another car unless the PPI comes back exceptionally good, you get the car for less than 5k, and you are willing to live with the thermal reactor smog system.

Good luck!

[leftcoastal]

Originally Posted by Mat 71

I agree with getting into a 3.2...problem is, if it hasn't been rebuilt in the recent past, then you again may be faced with a potential rebuild or repair at some point. If you rebuild the 2.7... which you can do some funky stuff to them if I am not mistaken...replace CIS with carbs etc., then you will know for sure that you are driving a reliable, well sorted Porsche.

I think going low on an offer is the best idea. Go get the guy down the street who you see working on his and bring him to look at it??

If you can get pics, I am sure the guys on this site will give you tons of thoughts as to value!

Mat

I hear what your saying....buying piece of mind is something I'm familiar with I'm having warranty work done on my LR Discovery as we speak at the stealership.

I know it's a little premature but I'd like to feel out the owner before getting a PIP so I'm not wasting money. I figure if he's donating it then he shouldn't be shocked with a $2k offer....right? boy do I feel weird about offering that kind of money for what once was my dream car!

I'll see about getting some pics together before the PIP...

Matt it's a coupe with a whale tail add-on

btw...I've been digging through the archives for common low cost upgrades for engine performance and cannot find much that doesn't deal with taking the engine apart. What are common mods and what kind of HP is to be gained? sorry if this should of been another thread

[leftcoastal]

Originally Posted by TT Oversteer

My reservations about this car would be CA smog laws. If it has the thermal reactors you will have to keep this system intact to pass smog and it's a very undesirable system.

If it were a 74 or 75 then you could mod the exhaust and/or install carbs and have a great running fun car. If the chassis is nice enough and the price nice enough you could sell the 2.7 and install a 3.2 and get it smogged by a CA smog referee station. This could add 5 to 10k to the price of the car depending on whether you do the conversion or pay someone to do it.

Bottom line, if you're not into wrenching I would look for another car unless the PPI comes back exceptionally good, you get the car for less than 5k, and you are willing to live with the thermal reactor smog system.

Good luck!

Are there certain VIN numbers to look for that indicate cars with thermal reactors?

[jimbauman]

Beware .... Even if the guy paid you $1000 to haul it away, you could end up spending more than the car is worth to get it roadworthy in California... especially if you don't do most of the work yourself.

[Mat 71]

TT Oversteer gave some good ideas re: upgrades for a 2.7...I have no idea about the extra HP etc., If you start searching 2.7 through this board, you should find a lot of stuff on what others have done.

I am also not up to speed with California smog issues. In Ontario Canada we don't have to smog/emission test anything 20 years or older.

Sunroof coupe?

I just searched "thermal reactors" and came up with quite a bit of information regarding the 2.7 and the year of car.

I don't think that the VIN is going to tell you anything regarding the thermal reactors...although there is a stamped number on the engine to make sure it is the same year as the car. Been awhile, but I think it is at the base of the fan on the right side if you are facing the engine from the back. I asked once, so I will look for through my own posts to confirm that.

Mat

[leftcoastal]

Originally Posted by jimbauman

Beware .... Even if the guy paid you $1000 to haul it away, you could end up spending more than the car is worth to get it roadworthy in California... especially if you don't do most of the work yourself.

Can you elaborate maybe a bit more about CA regs and this make and any problems you've had with passing smog? So far I've gotten a few estimates for fuel pumps for around $450-550 for parts/labor.


Mat I couldn't find anything either about VIN numbers specifying makes that had thermal reactors. I was under the assumption that all the '76 911's had them and was part of the reason why both the top/bottom head studs need replacing. I don't believe there's a sunroof.

Can someone clarify on whether or not the car should be running for a thorough PPI?

[stormmaster]

Shane....shame on you.....trying to grow your feable plot.....you know he should just get a Carrera and be truely happy.

[tcar]

I belive all CA 76's had the thermal reactors and a 5 bladed cooling fan. You can change the fan to 11 blade, but I'm not sure you can remove the reactors in CA. (See if either of these has already been done). Look under the engine, the TI's are long thin cylinders running from F to B under the motor.

There are some 2.7's that have run for over 100k miles without problems, but...

[SCWDP911]

Originally Posted by stormmaster

Shane....shame on you.....trying to grow your feable plot.....you know he should just get a Carrera and be truely happy.

every warm 3.0 helps man...

[jwetering]

For reference - up here in Vancouver there's a 1977 for sale, needs some head work but otherwise solid. He's advertising for $7800 - that's about $7K in your US dollars.

That's a runner. I've been thinking about it a lot, but at this point in my life I can't take on a project.

[ossiblue]

If you're truly interested in this car, here's your bargaining chip. In Cal it's the seller's responsibility to get the car smogged before the sale. The law does not recognize any "discounts" to a buyer who chooses to smog the car after the sale meaning, should the car fail smog, it's still the seller's responsibility to get it to pass. With that in mind, you should feel comfortable making a low offer knowing that he will, no doubt, not pay for the car being brought up to running condition and then smog tested. It looks like he will either sell to you or donate (my guess is he is thinking of donating for exactly the above reason.)

From your posts, I would offer a very low amount as I'd bet this car will take a good deal of time and money to sort out--putting you into the $10K range as mentioned above. Being a 76, you cannot remove the smog equipment nor change the intake without considerable hassle. Do you feel like spending that time and money? It's your call, but I believe you could get it for a very reasonable sum if you choose.

Keep us updated!

[941MXVET]

A while back the wife and I looked into a running '76 with some of the mods mentioned, such as the upgraded cooling fan. We had the seller talked down to $6000, and we decided to back out. That car was located to SoCal as well.