RoW 911's

[BlueWing]

I too lucked out in getting my Euro car. Traded a MB coupe and a few grand for it. My wife was looking for a Porsche and the po wanted our coupe and she wanted his SC. Not knowing the details the car was just what she was looking for. I got copies of the DOT and EPA paperwork from when the original owner sent it home from the mother land. I don't think it was properly federalized.

The items IIRC include windshield, bumpers, door beams, lights on all four corners, sppedo and emmisions. Mine may include all, some or none of the above.

I have a good friend with a BMW 850CSI federalized, the power is all lost in the emmision control conversion with no ECU reprogram.

If a car is considered a gray market car is it federalized, just registered with fudged paperwork or reconverted back to ROW specs?

Terry

[jhynesrockmtn]

My ROW 83 SC has an ROW 3.2 swap :-) No AC from factory, no cruise control, mine has the auto heat which I think is less desirable than just pulling levers but for now it seems to work. Smaller bumper overriders is a good thing. Mine is so modified from a drivetrain and suspension components perspective that any other differences are long gone. I would say if you're looking for something with a bit more stock HP and simpler in a few ways ROW might be a good way to go. Kalifornia is a different story, emissions issues might be a problem. My car passed WA emissions with no cat but we don't have a visual inspection.

[speeder]

I consider ROW 911SCs and Carreras to be WAY more desirable than U.S. models if the used cars in question are an apples/apples comparison. That's a big if, though, for several reasons. (Some of which have been mentioned here already).

I sold new Porsches in the 1980s in CA. when the grey market craze was in force. There were several reasons why people were importing grey market cars, mostly involving cost savings due to the (then) currency fluctuations between the strong U.S. dollar and the German Mark(?) and the lack of availability of 930 turbos in the U.S. between 1980 and 1985. Many, many regular 911s were also brought in, I never saw a grey market 928 or 944 but they might exist.

ROW 911 Carreras and 911SCs were lighter, more powerful and better-looking. (Unless you prefer giant rear bumperettes that look like ballast hanging off the rear of the car). They were often ordered or spec'ed-out in more of a performance-oriented manner w/ fewer weight-adding options, cars with no sunroof and limited-slip diffs+spoilers and sport shocks were common. Every U.S. spec 911 in those days had sunroofs, A/C, power windows, etc. as mandatory options unless special-ordered. LSD were uncommon on U.S. cars. The idea at PNA was that U.S. customers were completely different than home market ones and the cars would not be driven as intended due to low U.S. speed limits and a different driving culture here. They were right, for the most part.

I have seen countless grey market cars that were imported in the '80s and never saw a single one that had its ride height raised or anything else that seriously diluted the essence of the car. Cat converters were added for the federalisation process and then usually removed immediately. No smog inspection operator in those days knew the difference between a cat and a pre-muffler from a visual, none would today. If the car passed the tail pipe sniffer test, smog test passed. (This is still true, there is a visual inspection for original equipment but no one can delineate those two identical appearing exhaust components).

I knew a guy who ordered a new 930 in beginning of 1985 MY and bought currency futures at the same time. By the time the car was built and ready for pick-up in Stuttgart, he sold the futures and paid the equivalent of $27k U.S. for the car. New Carreras in the U.S. were ~$38k at the time. It was the hottest new Porsche on the street in all of Los Angeles at the time, hands-down.

The big "if" at this stage of the game is that all of these cars are old now so condition and records trumps all other considerations in used 911 considerations. The great majority of grey market '80s 911s were brought in when new so mileage discrepancies are an over-rated concern, IMO, if the car otherwise checks-out. Emissions concerns are a non-issue since the seller must smog the car in CA. and if it doesn't pass, don't buy it. I found a nice Carrera in Canada last year that I was interested in, the problem is getting it through customs to the U.S. now in 2009. Check current laws and regulations carefully at the U.S. DOT page, there are very specific rules depending not only on MY of car but exact make and model for each year. It was basically impossible to bring in a 1986 Carrera when I checked. Not old enough for certain exemptions, as I remember... It was a nicer car that ANY U.S.-spec Carrera of the same year for sale in the U.S. I know these cars, I sold them new, have owned them, rebuilt their engines, etc....

[tomphot]

I love my RoW - it took a little while to get it running right, but once I removed all of the added emissions stuff - the white box, O2 sensor and Cat - it now now runs like a champ.
I pulled a CarFax that showed it was brought into TX in '85 so mileage wasn't a concern as it was new.

I also like the way it looks from the rear, I even added the rear fog light that someone cut off, it was a simple splice to the existing wire.

[arrivederci]

I agree with most of the above, but there are two things you should be concerned about with a ROW car.

1) You don't know what sort of life it lived before it got to the US. Upon close inspection, I suspect my ROW SC had a tough life in Germany. I found little bits of rust that needed attention when going through the car. The owners manual service stamps indicate about 180,000 km before it was imported. Not all cars will have a complete history.

2) You don't know what was done to get it federalized, and the work varied quite a bit depending on the shop, etc. Welding in door bars, emissions, speedo/odometer, headlights, etc. You're talking about possible electrical, body, and/or mechanical changes...there wasn't a federalization kit so there isn't consistency. Again, you should carefully inspect whatever you're planning to buy to learn as much as you can about how that particular car was federalized.

I went with a Euro SC because of its competitiveness in PCA E Stock.

[superninety]

I was once told that ROW Carrera's and SC were designed to run on higher octane fuel and consequently their longevity was questionable running U.S. fuel.

Any truth to that?

I know my wife's German model Opel ran like crap on lower octane fuel in Chile. We pawned that off on some poor fellow when we left the country.

[wurls]

Well, mine is an absolute gem with NO rust anywhere! It has the original speedo on it because it is a Japanese model and is in km like in Canada here...so I know what the exact mileage is on it. The Japanese 911 engines were US spec...so there is no engine benefit over the US ones. Just the exterior body changes would be noticeable with my car versus a US one.

Anyways, it only has 91,000km (56,000 miles) on it, so it shouldn't be too difficult a sell.

[tomphot]

Originally Posted by superninety

I was once told that ROW Carrera's and SC were designed to run on higher octane fuel and consequently their longevity was questionable running U.S. fuel.

Any truth to that?

I know my wife's German model Opel ran like crap on lower octane fuel in Chile. We pawned that off on some poor fellow when we left the country.

The sticker on the inside of my RoW fuel door says...
Oktan Min 98 ROZ/RON

In the US, our Octane is measured in AKI.
The Premium fuel I use with a rating of 93 is equal to a RON reading of 97-98

[euro911sc]

You do have to be aware of the compression ratio on late SCs. It is 9.8:1 which, according to several of the engine gurus, is the upper max limit for pump gas on single plug engine. Get a little bad gas and you end up doing what I just did... rebuild. That said, I think this 'How was it federalized' concern is of little concern now. The newest SC is 26 years old!! Sometime in the cars history of ownership I think we can assume that any issues have been taken care of properly. If not it should bear out in the PPI!

....

You are getting a PPI right?

-Michael

[whiterabbit]

I looked for a while till I found an ROW. Its a German 1984 model and has been great. Only alteration I made was to remove the extra ECU piggy back device and put in SW chip. Its much ligher than a US spec car and to me looks a lot better too.

I would pay more for a ROW car especially in a rare color with low miles and no sunroof.

[wgerow]

How much faster is a stock ROW car vs a stock US car? It is noticeable? How much? is there an attraction to these cars due to performance, or is the primary attraction things like lower ride, no AC, no sunroof, etc...? Do the emission modifications that may have beeen made reduce performance gains that may be realized with the higher HP??
Thanks

[tomphot]

Originally Posted by wgerow

How much faster is a stock ROW car vs a stock US car? It is noticeable?
Thanks

i'm sure you can look up the numbers but as i recall, the HP numbers are somewhere in the 20hp range more for an ROW - if you get rid of the federalizer stuff.

Being 6'6", I needed no sunroof which is what I found with an ROW.
A friend and I both have '85 911s - his is a US car and mine ROW.
On a number of occasions, we have done "tests". We are both the same size so it's an even comparison.
0 to 60 - 40 to 60 - 50 to 80, I always smoke him.
The key is to remove the stuff they installed on the car when imported to bring it to US spec. Most cars will have some sort of piggyback box spliced into the ECU.
Once I removed that, respliced the wiring and got rid of the O2 sensor, the car woke up!

[javadog]

It depends on what year the car is and how it's optioned. The difference in power can be anywhere from 10 to 30, give or take, but a Euro car usually has a fatter torque curve and is better in response, so it feels like more. They are always lighter, apples to apples, and usually have fewer options, which helps even more. Some have been converted to meet US laws, some have not been touched. The latter is what I'd look for. They are out there...

JR

[Hugh R]

201 versus 231 HP IIRC. I have an ROW and didn't know about such things or PP when I bought the car 9 years ago. Mine was Federalized by AMG with a cat and O2 sensor and a gas vapor canister and side impact bars in the doors. It has a SW chip and passes CA smog easily. I've heard higher compression and bigger fuel rails, mine also has a trannie cooler that US cars usually don't have.

You can tell visually they have smaller rear bumperettes and turn signal side lights. Also have "ZZZ" on the VIN tag on the dash.

[pete3799]

Are ROW cars geared differently than the US versions?
5th on mine seems to be turning about 32K at 65MPH if i remember correctly.

[Canada Kev]

Yes. Mine's a G50 and, as a Swiss market car (G50/02), apparently has even different ratios from the RoRoW (Rest of Rest of World).

G50/00 (RoW) = 3.5, 2.059, 1.409, 1.074, 0.861

G50/01(US) = 3.5, 2.059, 1.409, 1.125, 0.889

G50/02 (Swiss) = 3.154, 1.895. 1.333, 1.036, 0.861

All have a final drive of 3.44

Here's a link to a thread where I wanted to know the same information: G50 transmission gearing question.

[pete3799]

Mines a 79 with a 915.

[area man]

Interesting thread. I was under the impression that RoW's were looked down on in the market, because of the uncertainties about their history. Steve Wilkinson in his "Golden Porsche" book says something to the effect that they should be avoided because they're "damaged goods." I was blissfully ignorant of all that when I bought it, and I'm glad I was! Mine's an '80 SC with backdated heat, SSI's and a Dansk sport muffler. I love the simplicity. And it drives great. Glad to hear other people are having the same experience.

Maybe Formerly Steve can chime in...

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by pete3799

Mines a 79 with a 915.

Whoops.

[wgerow]

Originally Posted by euro911sc

You do have to be aware of the compression ratio on late SCs. It is 9.8:1 which, according to several of the engine gurus, is the upper max limit for pump gas on single plug engine. Get a little bad gas and you end up doing what I just did... rebuild. -Michael

Is this a common problem with the SC ROWs? Do the Carrera's have the same problems?