This is definitely not a '74 shell. No side dash ventilation, basket weave red vinyl, column stalks wiper arms are early type, but not the washer jets. And the shifter is for a 915.
A hodge-podge for sure. Unless you know *exactly* what you want to do with it, and it has been all legally cleared, stay away.

Auto theft is like murder, there's no statute of limitation.Don't want that in your position if it's stolen.

Hello,
California Vehicle Code:
10750.**(a) No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the department.
(b) This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of the original vehicle identification number when the restoration is authorized by the department, nor prevent any manufacturer from placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

10751.**(a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component part thereof, from which any serial or identification number, including, but not limited to, any number used for registration purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer, has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle or component part has attached thereto an identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's number..
(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction. No court order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure. This subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding. Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the hearing required in subdivision (b). The notice shall contain the information specified in subdivision (d).

10752.**(a) No person shall, with intent to prejudice, damage, injure, or defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for sale any genuine or counterfeit manufacturer's serial or identification number from or for, or purporting to be from or for, a vehicle or component part thereof.
(b) No person shall, with intent to prejudice, damage, injure, or defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for sale any genuine or counterfeit serial or identification number issued by the department, the Department of the California Highway Patrol, or the vehicle registration and titling agency of any foreign jurisdiction which is from or for, or purports to be from or for, a vehicle or component part thereof.
Good luck!
eric

Eric,
Lucky me I'm not in California eh?
Here's the rub, and the reason why I haven't just called the cops already.
There are clauses in that legislation (and probably all states) that allows for re-applying VIN lables "When authorized by the agency"

Who is to say that this had not already been done? Who is to say that the period incorrect VIN plate was not mandated by some government agency when this car was last titled?

I can imagine two scenarios that might explain that part of this car:
1) the car was a ROW car brought to the USA in 1974.

but more likely (if there is a likely legal answer to this)
2)The car was once involved in an accident, salvaged, and rebuilt, using two cars and the VIN shown was the VIN that survived the paperwork shakedown.

Richard

whatever the deal is on the registration, I hope it is a 'steal' of a deal :D as it looks like a ton of work.

Richard,
You will find that most states have similar laws, in regards to administrative sections, why recreate the wheel when its already out there.
Good luck
eric

Richard,

I applaud your resolve on this issue.

If you (and I and everyone) don’t pursue these issues, there is nothing firm when buying a Porsche. It is up to US to force fixing any issue.

The entire Porsche community should demand proper documentation for every Porsche car ever built. I know that is an impossibility but if every transaction requires a ‘fix’, eventually we will have reliable titles. We can also make Porsches undesirable to the crooks.

Why is it that PAG & PCNA are so lame pursuing this? Could it be that a stolen 911 makes for a new car sale? I hope not. Why doesn’t PCNA (and PAG) maintain a registry of every Porsche ever built? If so, why isn’t it available to prevent fraudulent transactions?

Feel free to PM me.

Best,
Grady

This is what a normal US VIN plate looks like for 1974. The bend in the plate/inner fender is from a collision



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258314823.jpg

The only authorized retags I've seen, done in the U.S., are not in German--they are tags issued by the govenment agency which has the pertinent information embossed. I'm not claiming to know all scenarios, but a German tag is still a stretch given all the other red flags.

I know I keep beating the same drum, but even if the body is, somehow, legal, what about the engine? There is no question here that the engine has been altered to remove identification.

BTW, have you checked for the VIN by the smugglers box?

I think I understand your reluctance to involve the authorities, but remember this--"Innocent until proven guilty" applies to a person accused of a crime. This is not a person, it is property and no such "rules of justice" apply. In fact, I would argue that if doubt of authenticity arises, it must be assumed to be fraud unless otherwise proved. How else can one protect himself in the market place? Caveat Emptor, remember?

I can see where you don't want to get the current owner into trouble by a false accusation, but this is not a false accusation--it is a solid suspicion that stolen property is being offered for sale. Hopefully, you (or the owner )will find other VINs and that may clear things up, but if there are no others, that should be the final factor, IMO. Even a cobbled together car should have unadulterated VINs somewhere.

"(I don't know what Baujahr means.)"

Means "build year," or "year of construction."

Grady and I are familiar with stolen Porsches being sold, then an insurance company appearing to seize them from current owners, some of whom were still paying for them. It happened to friends here in Colorado some years ago. Any buyer of this car will forever be subject to that risk. If a buyer has restored the car, and the original insurance company claims it, he'll lose not only the car but all of his restoration investment. See the recent news about the VW bus stolen 35 years ago, innocently restored, and recovered as it was being shipped to Germany. The original insurer will end up owning it--and making a profit.

Thanks for bringing this car's problems to the attention of at least part of the Porsche community. Too bad there's no way to spread the news more widely, but involving a police agency and NCIC might get some insurance company interested, not that they'd be eager to claim such a project car. If the owner of this car can't document its strange numbers, any police department should have access to NCIC records.

Frank

I don't think so. Even if you section two cars, you leave the vin. After inspected by state, they issue a re-built title. In fact, when I did this, they went out of their way to inspect that the VIN nor none of the surrounding sheet metal was tampered with.

I only know of 1 case where the VIN was changed, and it was by Govt. (NJ). My brother bought a 928 that was a drug confiscated car, and NJ re-assigned the VIN#. It was a NJ tag, did not match Porsche convention, and had accompanying documentation.

Theres no such thing as free candy

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258336501.jpg

Yes, Frank and I have seen a lot.

The Chief Justice of the Colorado Supreme Court had to pay twice for his 911 in 1971. Anyone can be taken.

It should be our mission to prevent anyone from being victimized by the crooks.

Best,
Grady

In the case of the Restored VW Bus, it's not the original insurer. He got paid for it decades ago. the Bus belongs to the insurance company now. and what do ya think they are going to do with it? Auction it of course.

Now switch to my suspect 911. Lets say it is determined stolen. What do you think will happen to it? Impounded, seized from the current "owner". Then do you think it will be crushed and disappear from the system? No, it's going to be sold at auction. And if the (then new) paperwork gets lost (maybe again) then someone else will potentially fight this fight again in a decade or two.

To what end? Well the car is most likely destined to be parted out, and the shell scrapped. The cases, must be sold with full disclosure, and appropriate VIN history to follow the cases when the next guy questions it. That's what I had planned for it. And I've been told parting it out is what the guys in Colorado (who offered more than I did to the "owner") are planning too.
The part out scenario at least gets the VIN gone from the system. But I won't touch it unless it's been cleansed and blessed by the authorities.

Maybe this car was stolen / and recovered years ago. Maybe it's clean to buy and sell, but I won't risk it.

Richard

Two other VIN pictures are coming.

I've asked for the Two other VIN plate pictures from the "owner". The one near the smugglers box, and the one on the Driver's side A pillar

I did it in a way that he won't be suspicious if the three plates don't match each other. And I told him that knowing these numbers could "Change the value of the car to me"

Which it will. Probably down to Zero dollars. BUT it could all come back explained legit who knows.

Richard

Any pictures arrive yet?

I went by the car (With permission) and crawled around it to get pictures about an hour ago.

Here's the verbal:
Smugglers box ID matches the ID plate on the right side inner ID plate under the front trunk The Smugglers BOX ID number matches my expectations of what a real Porsche number looks like. I'll leave it to the experts to review.

Left (Driver's side) A pillar VIN plate is completely missing. The A pillar had been recovered, and the cover has pealed off. There are no marks in the cover to indicate that there ever was an ID Plate. There are no holes in the under material to indicate there was an ID plate.

I searched everywhere for a Dash Vin plate. but the dash is in sorry shape and nothing is to be found.

Lastly I got the production number from under the knee pad. I definitely need your help on this? Does it look legit or faked? There is a smear of paint that doesn't match the rest of the dash cover. 110 1952

Richard



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258592589.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258592627.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258592648.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1258592691.jpg

Can anyone post to the early 911 registry?
I try and post a new thread there, but it has repeatedly said something to the effect of:
Your submission will be reviewed by an admin before being posted.
and then it never gets there. I've replied to posts, but can't seem to create one.

I'm hoping someone there is an expert on Vins and can chime in too.

Richard

I'm taking the one VIN number I have and having a cop I know run it through whatever database of stolen cars they have. I'm not too hopeful. But should know more tomorrow.
Richard