Need a good clear photo of a later CIS from the rear

[VaSteve]

Anyone have one? I need to see the routing of all the lines. My engine is in and it's hard to trace from the half-a$$ photos I took last week.

TIA

[911Freak]

Here's a helpful link and a few pics I've accumulated over the years:
It's that time of the year AGAIN! (CIS)

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

Anyone have one? I need to see the routing of all the lines. My engine is in and it's hard to trace from the half-a$$ photos I took last week.

TIA

Steve,

Search for MCA (Craig). You'll find numerous pictures of his late SC engines from different views he had taken. If you don't find what you need, send him a PM. Good luck.

Tony

[VaSteve]

I'll try that thanks. It appears as if my metal WUR return line is plugged. I cannot blow any air through this to the tank. I ran some wire up there and can't seem to spot any blockage. I want to see what it connects into on the back of the engine. I was told a "T" but I can't see or feel it.

[mca]

See my signature for CIS Pics (zip file). Has tons of photos from 80 and 82.

I may have others too of those don't suffice. Let me know.

Craig

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

I'll try that thanks. It appears as if my metal WUR return line is plugged. I cannot blow any air through this to the tank. I ran some wire up there and can't seem to spot any blockage. I want to see what it connects into on the back of the engine. I was told a "T" but I can't see or feel it.

Steve,

Hook up a fuel pressure gauge and check your control and system pressures. If both cold control and system pressures are abnormally high there's a flow restriction some where between FD and gas tank. If your system pressure is OK and your control pressure is too high, check blockage either at the metal screen inside WUR or the return line (WUR) to either at the 'T' (return line) or at the 'T' behind the FD's main return line. Keep us posted.

Tony

[VaSteve]

Gentlemen, I got it running.

Yesterday we checked the pressures with the engine off and got something similar for both system and control around 5.4. I let the car sit overnight and at the recommendation of a mechanic, blew some air through the WUR on the input side. He said I could expect to hear it bubble in the tank and I couldn't.

I disconnected the large fuel line to return to the tank and blew air in and heard bubbles.

I disconnected the WUR output and rigged up a a hose to try and blow some air through the line and feel for the exit at the disconnected fitting. (See photo). I never felt anything. It was suggested to run a piece of wire up the line to see if there was any blockage. I ran what seemed like 2 feet of it up there and found nothing...but more gas came out....previously nothing dribbled out. I wanted the photo to see where the other end was....the fuel distributor I guess? I couldn't figure it out.



I put it all back together to test pressures. 60* (15.5* C) I got 5.2 for system pressure and 1.5 for control pressure. So I figured I would start it. And it did. It revved up to 3000 immediately and then settled into a crappy ~500 rpm idle. Which is better than it had been (previously it would start and run for a few seconds and then die or backfire out...I think CP was too high, or an airleak, or both).

I found that with the throttle it will rev but crappily. See video. I'm sure it's all way out of whack, but unsure which way to go next with it.

from Steve Vetter on Vimeo.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Steve,

Hook up a fuel pressure gauge and check your control and system pressures. If both cold control and system pressures are abnormally high there's a flow restriction some where between FD and gas tank. If your system pressure is OK and your control pressure is too high, check blockage either at the metal screen inside WUR or the return line (WUR) to either at the 'T' (return line) or at the 'T' behind the FD's main return line. Keep us posted.

Tony

FWIW, I downloaded mca's photos and I couldn't really trace the line from the WUR to the T. I got lost somewhere behind the airbox. Looking at photo #33 of the 82 group, it looks as if it goes to the right most (facing the engine) port on the back of the distributor. No T?

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

FWIW, I downloaded mca's photos and I couldn't really trace the line from the WUR to the T. I got lost somewhere behind the airbox. Looking at photo #33 of the 82 group, it looks as if it goes to the right most (facing the engine) port on the back of the distributor. No T?

Steve,

You're correct!!!There's no T-connection to the FD like I mentioned. Those are for early SC's ('78-79). However, the return line for your WUR is fitted directly to the FD (see pic #28) the left most connection. From pic #28 (thanks Craig for the photos), you'll see three (3) tubes connected to the FD. From left to right (from WUR, FD's return line to gas tank, to frequency valve connected to T-main return line).

Now that you got the engine running, next is to find out if you have a vacuum leak. Warm up the engine to operating temperature and let it idle (950 rpm +/-). Remove the oil cap and observe if the engine RPM changed at all. Keep us posted.

Tony

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Now that you got the engine running, next is to find out if you have a vacuum leak. Warm up the engine to operating temperature and let it idle (950 rpm +/-). Remove the oil cap and observe if the engine RPM changed at all. Keep us posted.

Tony

Tony

Did you see the video? I can't get it to 950 without turning *something*. Not sure what I should turn at this point...mix or idle. Opening the throttle (per the video) wasn't like it used to be so pressure is still to high or vacuum is too weak (leak), correct?

I should have done the oil cap test, that would have been easy. I have a friend who has a smoke machine. Might be a couple of days though.

[T77911S]

dont hit the backspace when you are out of this box after you have typed in a reply, now i have to do this again.

i did not see if you posted WCP's

air leaks are always a problem with CIS

have you let it run long enough to warm up? it could be the aux air regulator (AAR). if the idle comes up after it is warm, check the AAR

there is a big screw on the side of the throttle body that adjusts the idle, but verify the AAR first.

timing. too far retarded?

once warm, try lifting up or pulling down on the AFM air plate to see if it runs better or the idle comes up.

verify the gasket on the oil cap is good and there is one

is that just an exhaust leak on the video or is it missing?

[VaSteve]

From blackberry...

I never let it run long enough to warm up. I should do that and check WCP as you suggested. The oil cap gasket is new. The video skipps a bit from the conversion but there is a slight exhaust leak. The engine is running poor, but I don't think its missing as if the plugs were off. This is the best its run since the engine went back in.

[Paulporsche]

On your car, I think you can check for WCP even w/ the engine off. As long as the WUR is plugged in, the heating element should take the cp up to full warm in about 3-4 minutes. If you do it w/ the engine running, you don't have to get the engine up to 190F. My WUR goes from cold to warm CP in 4 min.

You may simply need to raise the idle via the big idle screw. Have you tried that?

I had an emerging hole in the metal pipe that goes to the AAR and AAV that I had to patch. The pipe rubs on the top of the oil cooler cover and/or the oil sender switch.

If your AAR is working correctly, the idle should start @ about 2000 then gradually go down to about 950.

[T77911S]

go ahead and let it warm up and check the WCP and check for increase in idle. there is a good chance the AAR is bad, or just stuck. changing the idle would only bandaide the problem. if the AAR is working, chances are the car will not idle at all once it is warm. someone could have already compensated for a bad AAR by setting the idle for warm running. you can leave it like that, but note that you will have to keep your foot on the gas to idle it up when cold. if you set the idle cold, it will be too high when warm.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Paulporsche

If your AAR is working correctly, the idle should start @ about 2000 then gradually go down to about 950.

That's how it used to work a few weeks ago, however, the idle would drop to about 500. So we suspected vacuum leaks and I did some repairs to adjust for that. When I put it all back together, it wouldn't run at all.

I think disturbing the CIS disturbed some old demons (or crud) that are now fighting me.

As you can see in the video, it starts and revs easily to 3000 and then settles immediately into a crappy 500 rpm idle that it won't freely rev from. Notice when the throttle is worked in the engine. It raises the rpm, but poorly.

I will check pressures again, but this is annoying. If I could get it to run where I could drve it, I could take it to an expert to do the final checking/tweaking. If I lift the plate (not shown in the video), it revs up fine but *almost* seemed to hang there. Aside from juct checking stuff, any rule of thumb on if it does "A", adjust "B"?

I think it's pretty far out of whack now (which I was trying to avoid) and don't know if I have more than one issue.

[T77911S]

what usually happens is over time as small air leaks open up, someone compensates by changing the mixture until something bigger happens and the problems need to be found.

chances are, if you have fixed all the air leaks, besides the AAR being bad, the mixture is off. that is why i asked about lifting,lowering the AFM plate, (not the throttle plate), to see if it ran better. this changes the mixture without actually changing any settings. if you determine the mixture is off, check the timing first.

one other thing that has not been mentioned is the fuse (i think 18) to the relay for the frequency valve. i am not as familiar with this as others. perhaps tony will chime back to give more specifics. also look into the O2 sensor.

oh, the reason the RPM jumps up to 3k is due to the aux air valve. dont get this confused with the AAR. the AAV is just a vacuum valve that is open when the car is off. it provides for a large amount of air to enter the motor when starting, hot and cold, but closes from the vacuum from the engine. it is like holding your foot on the gas when starting then letting off once it fires up.

[VaSteve]

Yes, a Porsche mechanic with a gas sniffer tweaked the mix and idle to make it run nice (enough) till I could repair the supposed leaks. He alos aksed that I put the O2 sensor back in. I did but it's disconnected right now at his request.

oh, the reason the RPM jumps up to 3k is due to the aux air valve. dont get this confused with the AAR. the AAV is just a vacuum valve that is open when the car is off. it provides for a large amount of air to enter the motor when starting, hot and cold, but closes from the vacuum from the engine. it is like holding your foot on the gas when starting then letting off once it fires up.

This is very useful. I think I was mixing up/combining the two in my mind. It's exactly you describe....foot to the floor to open when I turn the key. (It used to jump up, but not that high!) Based one what you describe, I might have had an AAR on the way out for a while. Hmm.

What is the difference between the AFM plate vs. the Throttle plate? I'm confused by your description. If you press up on the "elbow" it will rev up - I assume this is the AFM plate.... I pressed too much when I tested it and the RPMs took off. I will try it using the Soukus method (gentle) this evening if I have time.

Additional information while I'm here at work would be great!
thanks

[Paulporsche]

You shouldn't need or use your foot on the gas while starting a CIS car. This is one of the ways airboxes get blown. I don't remember, did you say you have a popoff valve, and is it seating correctly?

As Ty said, the AAV provides the gulp of air to the engine while starting. Once started, the AAR "takes over" and keeps the revs up to about 2000. As the engine warms up, the revs gradually go down.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Paulporsche

You shouldn't need or use your foot on the gas while starting a CIS car. This is one of the ways airboxes get blown. I don't remember, did you say you have a popoff valve, and is it seating correctly?

I said it was "like that", but I know not to do that. I start it through the window, Le Mans style.

Yes, a pop off, and yes, it's been popping during this process.


This is very interesting about the AAR. I never really understood it's function before....and it used to work.

[Paulporsche]

You mean you run across your driveway when someone waves a flag and start the car while jumping in?! Just kidding. Here's what I read: "It's exactly you describe...foot to the floor to open when I turn the key". The "like that" part didn't come across. The important thing is that you are observing the proper procedure.

The plate you want to raise or lower is the sensor plate (air metering plate in 911Freak's pic) in the mixture control valve. That's the large metal one under the large rubber housing. As you mentioned Souk has a method for checking mixture by using this.

Your AAR may still be working. It's possible the WUR is off so it is defeating the AAR's proper functioning. That was happening w/ my car. It's also possible there is a vac leak as you have mentioned. Mine was in the AAR pipe.

Since you said your popoff valve is popping, I would definitely check those control pressures during warmup.