Once you get her back together I would suggest a light coating of anti-seize on each plug and ALWAYS start spark plugs by hand. You can feel when they are starting to cross thread vs. using the spark plug and plowing your way to an expensive repair. I've been using anti-seize for aprox. 35 years on EVERY engine I've owned and never had a problem. I know this doesn't help you now but hopefully in the future. Good luck with the repair.

I've changed plugs countless times, especially on this car over the short span of 3 1/2 years. It wasn't I who crossed this plug (BTW),..it came that way,..I WAS the dumbass who didn't get a PPI...THAT'S the reason for the "offerings to the PPI gods"...!!!!!!!!!!!!! We sure would of known of this anomaly before I wrote the check back then.

I always used very, very light touch of anti-seize on plugs,..then came the discussion of dry installs.....I just could never bring myself to do it....I use a LIGHT coat over a very short area with a bit of Lithium grease to boot (thank you PETE ZIMMERMAN!!) . Always start by hand,...NOT over-torqe them .............they always come out perfectly.

Appreciate the well wishes and information (although it's something I've always done in the past,...that is, I've never taken a "plow my way through to an expensive repair" approach, for the record...............)

Geeze,...about an hour out from another 365 days to engage ('till doing it again,..the repetiveness?) Speaking of the New Year, my PP friends,..and hope all the Pelicanites have a great upcoming year,...ah,.."hope".........................

Was unable to engineer a schedule for a face to face with James but we had a few calls today,..such a good guy. . I'm heading down to his place tomorrow (they're closed but he has work to do). The engine's on the ground and the tranny is parted (which yielded a great inspection with clutch specs= being just fine,...(at my direction: his recco),..and it made sense to me,..why not? Of course, I'll be using this term "why not" fequently...).

I hope to get some pics tomorrow and a better update. Although I don't have my notes here with me, there was mention of related seals (don't remember them all as they were front and back of the engine) changeout.

Valve covers have been dropped and head studs didn't fall out (he stated he didn't expect it, really, due to the full rebuild at 97K. Did note rocker walk X2 plus leaking rockers. Guess this will need to be checked for source problem (could be several things) and make sure the rockers haven't been damaged in any way ..I'll know more on this specific tomorrow.

The oil return tubes on the Passenger side were changed prior to my ownership with collapsables, leaving the other side original. These are quite "darkened" and really don't appear to be leaking (BTW) BUT we are gonna' change these out (my parts) with fresh metal and O-rings.

I've decided to order the OEM fuel lines as it appears the ones in there are originals.....not too cheap but I'll be getting these thru our Host,..no home-made stuff for me.....James noted some cracking,..so, it's a no-brainer...

Spark plug? I don't even want to talk about it,..like I sai: a drilled approach then "whatever"......certainly NO HEAD REMOVAL. We'll see. I'm leaving this in their professional hands. Prof's in the pudding, I say.

Many ancillary things will be touched (thermo o-ring), new pressure light sender, breather gasket. I've already installed ALL new rubber an EVERYTHING 'round back (oil/vacuum).

...oops,..gotta' run

Off back to the celebration,..will check in tomorrow, upon return.

BEST TO ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Happy 1st 2010. :)

Re: Rockers walking?

Meaning: The shafts moved?

If the bores are fairly undamaged, re-positioning and re-torqueing may do it.

Depending on where you look for specs, there are some differences:

Bentley SC Manual: 11 ft-lbs,
Wayne's Book: 13.2 ft-lbs,
Anderson: 15 ft-lbs.

I think it depends on the condition of the bores. If in doubt, I'd go with ~14 ft-lbs. It's hard to get a 1/4"-drive torque wrench in there but it can be done with the help of a 1/4" extension and flex-joint.

It is absolutely imperative to center the shafts in the bores so there is equal "meat" in the bores on both sides of the shaft for the seal to occur after torqueing.

IMHO, shafts move due to incorrect positioning and/or incorrect torque or damaged bores.
Some people use the small rubber seals but I don't.

Thanks Gunter....been spending the better part of the morning rambling through MANY educating threads on this area. I've caught the threads regarding torque values on NEW stuff vs. reusue of old stuff......appears to be a consensus to add a bit of additional torque. I'll ask him what he feels the "walking source" may be. I'll replace any questionable items...

I'm torn about using these seals....I have them in hand but am thinking: should I experience any "walking" in the future, this would (I guess) be accompanied by an oil leak (INDICATION THAT SOMETHING'S GOING ON). Should I make use of the seals, will it (possibly) hide something by stopping any rocer leaks>?

Thanks, again, for your response.

Like that last line in your sig (BTW)....................

Best,..and Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, we'll aim for a good year and a few long drives.

Re: Shaft Seals.

They won't do any harm but.....................be prepared that they are tricky and time-consuming to install; your choice. The problem is that there isn't a chamfer on the bores to let allow the shafts with the seals to make it into the bores smoothly.
In my case, I was sure that the bores were good and concentrated on position and torque for the shafts. Besides, I was prepared to put up with the odd small leak. :)

At the best of times, the shafts/rockers are tricky to work on because space is tight and access restricted. Patience and fingertip-dexterity helps.

Getting the torque right without a small torque wrench is impossible but may have to be done with just 2 Allen wrenches. To experience what 14 ft-lbs feels like, you can use a same-size and same-pitch Allen screw with a nut in a vice and tighten it by hand with a regular Allen and then check with a 1/4" torque wrench.

However, since your mechanic is doing it, you'll have to rely on his expertise.

,..and he has much more than I,..for sure. Engine's on the ground, so that will help tremendously.

His shop is immaculate and well equipped. I'm pretty sure he has everything he needs to get it all done. I've sent him the posts/sources of heading a bit over the Porsche torque spec on reused items and have asked him what his experience/take is based on his 30 years of Porsche experience.

Sure do appreciate your replies.

Best,

Doyle

Just to add: I sure felt better after speaking with James on the labor process/expensing of the "parts" installation. I'm sitting here thinking there would possibly be ind. charges for each part installed but was comforted in being reminded of what I already knew but ignored: that the parts installations would be extremely quick,..one could get a lot done in an hour with the engine on the ground. New thermostat Viton, repair a broken-off thermostat stud, new pressure switch, breather gasket, new driver side oil return tubes, new flex fuel lines, valve adjustment, fix any rocker walk issues, new V/C gaskets/washers (gray), nyloks., new clutch slave cylinder flex line, etc...these type of things. He drew the analogy of looking for the fruitcake,..finding it,..everything you need is RIGHT THERE (engine out or fruitcake in the can),..indulge,..done somewhat compactly and quickly,...I felt better. These particular items I don't really anticipate extraneous labor,..in fact, it will be smaller than expected. In light, I've no problem with engine R/R labor portion of $500. The valve adjustment process includes oil change (I provide ALL parts-BP 20W50, Mahle oil filter, seal, crush washers, etc.) for ~100 towards the total labor costs.

NOW, the spark plug extraction process is estimated to be ~$200 of the total labor bill with VC adjustments.

I've got $150 in it so far, on the clock.

I've got to discuss further the $500 charge (parts/labor to deal with many seals (crank? I/bearing, pulley, etc [MANY]........cracking the tranny open and checking (she was given' a clean bill of health (BTW) and any tranny seal(s)? Some of this labor will cover (I guess) the necc labor to remedy any rocker-related issues. Also relates to inspection of both reference sensors,..will replace if found to be brittle-up....new CHT will be installed

I've a side issue (problem) with something to do with the compressor mounting plate. I'm quite aware of an existing stripped thred on one of the comp's (3) mounting bolts...I do get minor vibration when running through the gears (above4500 RPMs) WITH the compressor engaged....always wondered about this. In any case, James wants to remove the muffler to be able to look at something relating to the mounting plate...will know more on this tomorrow. When I think of fighting those rusty bolts on the exhaust (muffler) , I see possible labor hours escalation,..on the other hand, Serge is a no nonsense kind of wrench that knows exactly how to get those off and fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I bet that's the case, too !!!) Not a big deal, at all,..in his world. (again, THAT's why she's at the Pros right now,..expectations are higher, no?)



I'be sure to ask as many question as possible to share with the group,..he really is a good teacher,..but VERY busy. Will get some pics for you guys.

Am pricing the needed parts for an overnight shipment on Monday to make sure he's ready to go. I do realize that his charges would possibly be higher than PP's (somewhat expected, actually) but will let him know what quotes I provide for his comparisons...I think it fair, to him. Hell, he's the one allowing use of MY parts bin within this work project. I think this to be positive, in that one could encounter parts performance issues that could (maybe) be significant,...not good it it's YOUR part that failed after the completed work. His only request (requirement, actually) is that Porsche parts are used...no problem there, as that's all I have !!!!!!!!!! On the other hand, I DO own Wayne a deep gratitude for the information paased within our NG,..it's (simpy) priceless. And for that, I'll not dicker over small $$ beans,..I owe this group: period,..I owe Wayne for making it available.

She arrived at his place running quite well...with a fresh dist. cap, rotor button, 5 new plugs, a cleaned ICV, new air filter, new fuel filter (after a healthy dose of Techron), fresh MobileOne Delvac in the G50 (an shifting epiphany) that yielded absolutely NOTHIN (black goo, maybe) on the magnet=no metal at ALL), brand new brake flex lines and brake fluid flush (extensively). The 2 year old Berus (I installed new) seem to be getting the job done (still). Nighttime water sprays show no coronas (other than the cold one that's typically in my hand).

I've asked for a few additional things to be done, such as verifying the cat is flowing properly (I've never removed it and have only IR'd the input and output to make a relative determination, long ago), check the AF ratio, idle, CO and HCs, fuel pressure tests, oil pressure tests at various RPMS, and a coil output waveform analysis for health (the coild has always tested good for primary/secondary resistances but I'm the anal one who would like to see it's "signature"..,....so I have my baseline data...possible changeout the intake gaskets while she's down.

In closing, I would ask you guys if you would expect that #1 cylinder/valve/piston head to have experienced any "challenges" for having run this plug for a while (vs. changing out the other 5 every 5K miles (I know...). I've often wondered about the spark decrease on aging plugs and the reduced combustion (if that is correct)....wouldn't something give in this case? Carbon excess? other things? Just wondering if that section needs special cleaning precautions? Probably superfluous....thought I'd throw it out there.

I have to say that James has been very informative as to the methodical plan,..to do things right,..and be sensitive to my budget (yes, the paint budget goes away for a while)....I feel really good dealing with him and Serge.....I trust 'em......I think this to be a priceless element.

Off to focus on some New Years' resolutions...'nough ramblings.

See you all tomorrow.

Best,

its ironic that the rocker arm issue showed up just yesterday I came across some info at Competition Engineering on torque of the rocker arm shafts
"Competition Engineering - CE's war on oil leaks"
hope this might help

Yeah,..I passed this info on to James yesterday.\\Thanks, bcketner.

Spent the day waiting for the P-wrench to phone,...only until I was taking the Wife to dinner (4:30) did the call come in...talked the Wife into hitting a drive thru then raced home to drop her off first.

Unfortunately,, in haste, I forgot to change out the camera battery and was limited to a few shots before she died (man was I pissed).

I've uploaded a few pics of the plug (of course THIS is right when the camera died so I apologize for off-focus, etc...

Also,..my engine looks like the frikin' poster child for "walking rockers"......GEEEEEEEZE. Look at that sheeeiiit?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498473.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498494.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498512.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498557.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498575.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498596.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498623.jpg


Flywheel bearing(?) needs changeout....
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498740.jpg


Clutch: has some left on it...but I'm considering going ahead and changing it out.
All other parts on the clutch looked just fine (shaft update good)....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262498832.jpg


She'll get new seals/gaskets front and rear, new oild return tubes, breather gasket, thermo viton, pressure switch. new fuel ines (T, connecting hose, pressure and return sides,..new clutch slave and flex line. Repair the broken thermostat stud,..and stripped AC compressor mounting bolt.

I'm told that the plug will be drilled out,..that should happen Monday.......

And, lastly (I guess),...what I though would be a wheel bearing issue (lateral slop on the driver side FW) turns out to be something to do with the "crossmember" (if I have that term correctly),..PET states it to be the "Auxillary Support" (front). I did not catch the nature of the failure but he says it needs to go ($$)

Eyes are crossing,..time for bed....will check in tomorrow to see what the hey I typed..

Good night.

Best,

And now, for the good stuff.....James showed me his GT Cup Car (he races...) nice rig, no?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262499475.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262499501.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262499523.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262499549.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1262499580.jpg

Night all,

AAARRRRGGG your not going to put that IED of a clutch plate back in that car!!! are you?

No sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

phewww I can't beleave Porsche still used them up to 89, with all the failures and a fix on the shelf.
Sorry, didn't mean to yell, I was just startled!

That's OK James,..I take it you don't like the rubber centered clutch? ! ? Time for me to reread the clutch comparison threads.

Good time for an aluminum flywheel!!!

There have been people who have put spring centred in and gone back to rubber due to the noise .. abd vibration transmitted throuht the clutch .... just be aware ..

She load in with rubber, no springs (I don't want the noise, either,..as I've got that G50 pretty damned quiet, as is). I do believe the rubber-centered one for '89 had addressed (even) further issues with this clutch (rubber)....This will work for me and my needs.

Thanks Ice,

Doyle

Can't see any evidence of rocker shafts walking in the pix.

Be aware that there is a thick side and a thin side in the partitions on the cam towers.

The thin side usually shows any walking when the shafts are no longer almost flush with that side.

The Bentley SC Manual page 151-9 has a good picture of the correct position.
There should be one in the Carrera Bentley?

The clutch has given you good service but......................Sachs ALU sport clutch is a nice upgrade. Maybe just clean up the flywheel and consider the ALU clutch?

Does the flywheel need a grind?