Hey, I give up, I've put myself up as a target and I'm not going to continue apologizing.

It's like what I say to my wife, and she too is baffled: "Ya know, I _really_ like Hershey's chocolate. I think it's terrific and I actually can't tell the difference between it and all these fancy foreign chocolates." There will always be people who are baffled that I don't prefer Godiva or Ghiradelli's, and good for them.

There are people who claim to tell the difference between a warm vacuum tube and a cold transistor in a hi-fi system, who claim to tell the difference between a 1998 and 2001 Stag's Leap bottling, between a platinum print and a high-quality black-and-white, between superb sushi and outstanding sushi...

But it's all fish to me, and I'm happy eating whatever I get.

No question (for me) discerning tube vs. solid state......that's a fact (for me),..still measureable,.....you gotta' love that even-order harmonic structure...it's "warm".,..especially , compression.

No question as to discerning the the difference between the two noted Stag's Leap's vintages,....we sucked on the grapeskins of a '86 Petrus this weekend!!

Back to P-cars,....I can feel the difference after loading the gas tank, especially to FULL...settles the car, for sure.

I've been riding around with a case of oil , tranny fluid, and parts for an upcoming repair visit....I do carry a VERY HEAVY tool bag, as well...(still) other stuff under the bonnet. Funny to see this thread, as (just) today, I removed the toolbag, parts extras, case of oil, spare tire, jack,,..pretty much everything. Not sure how much weight it totalled (easily 150 pounds?)....drove her all day like this at 4 different times,..with and without a passenger.......un-frikin-believable........I'm speechless...talk about "darty"......

Yes, I understand that the weight reduction will yield relative gains,..it's just that I don't track her, nor have any huge concerns with what I want to carry....I've kinda' gotten' used to it.......however,....

My eyes were really opened with today's experiment.

...I'm usually happy with what I get to eat, too.

Best,

Lets play with some numbers.

On my car jack, tools, & spar was 50 lbs.

A 2600# 911 (w driver) has about 40% weight in the front or about 1040# on the front wheels.

The front spring rate is about 122 on each side or 244 combined.

It should ride about 3/16" lower in the front.

That is about a 5% increase in weight on the front.

This might make feel like one has about 5% softer front shocks.

It might make your front tires feel like the air pressure is 5% lower.

That is about 2% of the total driver car weight.

If making 150hp or about 128rwhp. That is equal to about 2.5rwhp or not quite about equal to adding a sport muffler.

Of course, a sport muffler also makes a car sound faster so it seem like more.

Or something like that.

Really
 

I imagine this would be problematic...

It's not just the weight.
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1261368584.jpg

At our Gingerman DE, I suggested that the owner of this car replace his spare tire.
Not only would it help to better balance the car, but also offer some crash protection as well. I usually don't take pictures of cars after track mishaps, but he wanted to thank me and show me that it worked.

lmao!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you ever notice a difference in a light plane when taking off with a passenger or without one ?

BTW, my 78 targa handles better with a passenger. My 80 with the track setup was less sensitive, but it really did not want to turn in to a tight corner without a dab of brakes.

As in, ''I will not turn in.''. But then it had pretty tight LSD, and was already a very light car.

I drove a '64 VW Van for years when I was (much) younger. As everyone already knows, these vehicles are probably in the top 10 as being slow and cumbersome.

What I found amazing at the time, was when I loaded it down to the max with people, band equipment, drywall, lumber etc., the van was able to completely maintain it's power and speed...the considerable extra weight did not seem to affect the driveline's characteristics.

I attributed it to the transaxle's reduction gear boxes. Those wacky Germans...

When I was a kid and I road raced 400 pound motorcycles, I could feel the difference on the race track when I refueled with 4 gallons of gas, only because the fuel tank was mounted high and it very, very slightly slowed the ability to flick from side to side, and very slightly increased the tendancy to wheelie out of tight turns.

I could not feel the difference on the road.

With my 911 and my Cobra, I've autocrassed with and without a passenger, and quite frankly, I can't feel the difference in handling or accelleration.

I find it quite funny when I re-read the old road tests in Car & Driver where they extoll the handling virtues of one 911 over another because the 2nd coupe had a sunroof. The editors claimed to be able to tell the difference in handling because of the extra weight of the sunroof motor.

Regards,

Jerry

I've worked in fields dealing with characteristics of the human senses & perception. Years ago I noted that humans have a fantastic (& typically untapped) capacity to discern fine distinctions among similar stimula. The realization of this capability is based upon their need, interest or education, combined with personal idiosyncracies (& their environment, natch). An example might be a concert violinist selecting their instrument. There is a great deal of "natural" variation in this trait, but I have been most impressed with the underlying capability for anyone's improving their discernment (distinct from belief in their own potential or self-confidence). I am not implying anything about one's capability to perform a task. And of course, there are always outliers.

i'd guess this varies according to how much hp and suspension/tire each of us has. in my 2.4 i can definitely feel a difference with a passenger. never put more than 10 gallons in the car so can't really say on the gas thing.