Trick circuit breaker/fuse panes/bus pics and specs

JohnJL · 08-29-2009, 11:39 PM

As shown in the cross-post below I need to do some major wiring surgery to the 1971 Targa. As many of you know this car is a pure toy...50% of the time at the track and 50% of the time as a weekend get-away GT. So I have retained creature comforts like a new interior, but I've shed any excess weight and it rides on coil-overs. The motor is a 3.0 race motor from my old race car with webers on top. Down to 950kgs and 250hp now.

Only the body, doors and glass is original now and the wife has forbidden me to ever sell it so originality and resale is not an issue. What I'd like some help with is some ideas for a reliable but trick electrical panel. I've done 3 Painless kits on cars now and I'm not that impressed with the universal kits, though the wire on the extreme kits is of good quality.

I've been surfing here and Aircraft Spruce, I'm thinking about a bank of circuit breakers and relays in the trunk. I've seen some solid state breakers that auto-reset but I'm sure I'd be tempted to ignore or not notice faults on circuits that auto-reset.

Yes, fuses are cheaper and simple (good!) but there's nothing trick about them. I'd like something a bit unique but still dead-reliable. I notice aircraft run breakers.

So I'd appreciate anyone's pics of their power panel, especialy breakers or unique/orderly fuse panels.

Thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJL

Yesterday was a sad day. The 1971 let all the smoke out of its wires. Luckily the fire was small and went out quickly. There was no further damage, the car was in a safe-ish place, and I was able to tow it home with the Patrol. It doesnt even stink today!

I guess it could have been sadder.

I am perplexed by the symptoms and cause and am interested in ideas.

Last weekend the car died on the highway. At first I suspected a battery or alternator failure as in my recollection I lost all electrics but no fuses were blown. I towed the car home and went about looking everywhere for a popped fuse. I found that the fuel pump wasnt getting voltage and confirmed it worked by jumpering it directly to the battery. I traced the fault back to pin 50 on the ignition switch not feeding the pump relay, but when I removed it, cleaned it and reinstalled everything worked again.

So I took the car out for a spin around the block, everything is normal. I get about 5 miles and the car dies again. This time all the circuits work except the fuel pump. I removed the ignition switch plug again and notice the red #50 wires are a bit warm. I figure maybe the fuel pump is dying and drawing too much current, maybe it needs to cool down...but it wasnt long before white smoke starts billowing out of the front of the car. I shut everything down, grab my extinguisher, open the hood and disconnect the battery.

Lots of fried wiring, from down by the fuel pump and back all the way to fuse panel. Funny thing is, no fuses popped. You can see here in this pic the wires are fried back to the fuse panel itself but the fuses are intact!

So I'm going to embark on a complete re-wire and I'll separately post on some questions I have on that. I am interested in help on why this would have happened? Is it possible or common for a fuel pump to draw more current as it is dying?

Thanks!

JohnJL · 08-30-2009, 12:11 AM

The pics on the Blue Sea site are bitmaps so won't upload here but these look good... I think RonanLB mentioned these in a post in 2002...

http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/productline/126

GLASFIBRE · GLASFIBRE's Garage

Those are avaiable off the shelf from West Marine. I have used them for everthing 12v.

DUK · 08-30-2009, 04:24 AM

I used these guys, but I did a total rewiring of my car when it was disassembled. Maybe they can help you with just the fuse block?

http://www.watsons-streetworks.com/vw.html

BTW- the vw harness has everything the same as the 911.

RoninLB · 08-30-2009, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJL

The pics on the Blue Sea site are bitmaps so won't upload here but these look good... I think RonanLB mentioned these in a post in 2002...

http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/productline/126

this is what I use on circuits that I feel are a problem waiting to happen like electric seat motors, high watt bulb headlighs, audio amp, etc

I have it mounted next to the battery on the floor in the space close to the bulkhead. CBs are vapor proof and meet high marine stds.

it aint cheap

RoninLB · 08-30-2009, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJL

The pics on the Blue Sea site are bitmaps so won't upload here

what I do is open Microsoft "paint"

go back to bitmap image and right click "copy".. [not "save as"]

go to paint and hit "edit" and hit "paste" in drop down menu. now your pic is displayed as a bitmap file

go to paint "File" in top header and hit "save as" in drop down menu

when the "save as" window opens change the "file type" to "JPEG" in the lower section

write the name of file you want then add .jpg at the end of name

find the area where you want to save it in the top header

hit "save"

party hearty

RoninLB · 08-30-2009, 05:46 AM

This is a nice fuse panel. Nice find John.

If it's marine electrics it's vastly superior to auto. It might have silver coated connectors?

Tom '74 911 · 08-30-2009, 05:50 AM

I'm really interested to see where you go with this. Here's some pics of a race car that runs a breaker type system - very slick.

jcge · 04:42 PM

JohnJL

Installed one of those Blue Sea panels (from Whitworth Marine) on a boat a couple of weeks ago - they are beautiful (and about $100AUD for the 12 circuit version) edit * tin * over copper. Very well designed and built.

In Sydney, you might try Aquavolt for Carling circuit breakers

Regards
John

JohnJL · 08-30-2009, 02:36 PM

Thanks guys. I think I'm going to go with one of those Blue Sea units, or will see if one of those distribution panels will neatly fit my now-empty left front battery box. Flush-mounting that with the cables hidden behind in the box would look very neat.

John, thats a great link, I might pop around their store this week. I notice their site doesnt show any high-spec cable. Anyone have a source on teflon or other high-spec wiring in Australia. Like an Aussie Waytek?

911pcars · 08-30-2009, 04:03 PM

Unless yours is a track car, I wouldn't stray too far away from the factory wiring system or unless you create detailed schematics of the revised wiring. Electrical diagnosis is difficult enough with a road map of where the electrons should go. Lacking one, all but the most persistent technicians will be discouraged by a one-off electrical system or contemplate purchasing a new jet ski should you agree to have them look at it.

That said, I could recommend a more stable and reliable circuit protection area, the fuse box. With some attention to detail, one could replace the DIN fuse boxe(s) with more modern ATO/ATC blade-type fuses found on modern vehicles. Here's an example of such a fuse box:

Waytekwire.com:

These are the latest versions of ATO/ATC blade fuses which have a built in manual reset breaker function (Del City). Unfortunately, the smallest capacity fuse is 10A.

These ATO fuses (Waytekwire) are available that trigger a built-in LED indicating the fuse is open (blown).

Still, not for the faint of heart, but for the serious DIYer, a good project sure to arouse the oohs and ahhs from us if successfully completed.

Sherwood

JohnJL · 08-30-2009, 06:21 PM

Hi Sherwood, yes I agree. I have been using a shareware program (I dont have it on this PC, forget the name) to create new wiring diagrams on the last 2 cars I've done. It is very helpful for future diagnosis/extension.

Adam at Tuner's Group has very helpfully provided some spec sheets for higher spec wire/cable.

Its difficult to tell from the spec sheets how the quality differs across them. I'm awaiting pricing, anyone care to share your observations of "Type E PTFE" and "ETFE" insulated wire? The PTFE has slightly higher working temp limits (200 vs 150 C). Other than that the diameter limits and resistance figures are similar.

Anyone use "Cross Linked Polyethelene PVF - Military" cable? Its dual-jacketed but its diameter is smaller and lighter for the same ratings as those above. Marketing materials state "This wire should be considered for airframs, avionics, military vehicle, shipboard, missile applications." Cool, missiles. I dont have a price on that yet.

John

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

I also have some Blue Sea items* and they are quite nice. I hear tho that there is some manf. that is just as good and a lot cheaper.

Rewiring this puppy is a daunting task - please post what you do.

* on my VW Westy; on the 1973 911 I just use the stock fuses, despite their old-timey & cranky nature...

911pcars · 08-30-2009, 07:44 PM

Vehicle weight loss can also be accomplished with the right choice of electrical accessories, e.g. replacing incandescent light bulbs with LED counterparts will reduce the current carrying requirements of the various harnesses.

Sherwood

jcge · 08-30-2009, 10:35 PM

JohnJL - If you're going to do a full rewire, you might want to start a thread to solicit input on how to plan and make a wiring harness - things like the "thick rope" trick, wiring diagram vs loom diagram - loom boards (or tent pegs) etc - before you buy any wire, connectors components or wrap. You'll save plenty of $/time/frustration.
Regards,
John

RoninLB · 08-30-2009, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnJL

Anyone use.......

..........considered for airframs, avionics

I think it's great that you're into personalizing your car.

My trip is severe service wiring. If your into that then marine wiring etc is the way to go.

If you're into digital multiplex performance look at wiring made for something like the F-14. That plane had many independent computers that had to basically operate on one elec system.. It was famous for being a grounding nightmare.

party hearty

JohnJL · 08-30-2009, 10:58 PM

Thanks John.

I dont pretend to know everything about rewiring these cars, but this is the 3rd one I've done. The other times I used Painless harnesses and ended up having to bastardize them to adapt to the Porsche switches and circuits. I'm sure I'd end up with a lighter/better/tricker loom by building from core components.
As I mentioned above I use a program to create a new wiring diagram as I go.

914efi · 08-31-2009, 05:02 AM

Interesting thread.

I have just been searching for some simple things. Where do you buy wire, connectors, etc that have double crimps. Also connectors that are made to snap into terminal blocks so that you can replace the pigtails that come with most relay blocks with a continuous wire?

techman1 · techman1's Garage

Showed up as a guest on "Two Guys Garage". They did a race car project. I think I recall the price as kinda high, but really neat!

See if you can pull up the episode online, really good explanation of the system. Here is a link to the company: http://www.isispower.com/

911pcars · 08-31-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 914efi

Interesting thread.

I have just been searching for some simple things. Where do you buy wire, connectors, etc that have double crimps. Also connectors that are made to snap into terminal blocks so that you can replace the pigtails that come with most relay blocks with a continuous wire?

There's a couple of sources mentioned in #11.

Sherwood