3.6 Varioram Conversion Performance Specs?
 

I was hoping someone might be able to tell me what the 0-60 and quarter mile times are for an early 911 with the 3.6 varioram upgrade are? Or point me in the right direction? Considering the upgrade on my 87 911 but am trying to find out what the performance gain numbers are.

Thanks so much!!

I would look up the 993 numbers for the VR year and take that as a guideline. 0-60 likely will be better on the earlier car with this engine due to gear ratio and lighter weight. Just a thought. I am sure there are people chiming in that have 0-60 and 1/4 mile times measured with the stop watch or their accelerometer gizmos!

George

just do it and drive man...

back yard walk:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XMXmXq0AbH0&hl=ja_JP&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XMXmXq0AbH0&hl=ja_JP&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

BUMP - Anyone else with some input?

I don't think anyone has dragged their car to get 0-60 or 1/4 mi times, but based on my butt timer, I'd guess 0-60 anywhere from 4.1 to 4.5 sec and 1/4 in 12.0 to 12.6 seconds. Your results will vary depending on gear ratios and how much your car weighs.

email Peritus.

I have driven his car, I am not a 1/4 mile guy but I suspect Steve W is correct. The 0-60 numbers seem about right from 'feel'.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/493216-sale-3-6-varioram-conversion-911-sc.html

I have a 3.8 in my '87 with stock ratios but slightly larger tires. Have not done the 0-60 in any scientific way but the difference from the stock 3.2 is "significant."

Between 4 and 4.5 sec depending on how much clutch you want after.

Nobody have a G-tech or other accelerometer and can run this?

George

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I am trying to decide whether to pony up the $ and do the conversion or to just buy a 993... What a difficult decision?!?!?!?!

So I figure if I can get some specs on the a 3.6 in an older 911 body it may sway things.

I am also trying to figure out if it may be worth going from a 3.2 to like a 3.4 or 3.5?

$/ increased HP ratio is pretty steep...

0-60 times are one thing, track times another. The 993 will have better brakes and suspension on top of the added power. It will be heavier, but that can be remedied if you start taking things out.

I would lean towards hot rodding the 3.2 or getting a 993 over a 3.6 transplant.

George

I've had both, and I still have the 87, so the bias may be obvious... However, objectively speaking the 993 is a better car all the way around (SAI and ODBII issues excluded, and I did have some trouble there). The topic has been beaten to death elsewhere, but if your only objective is performance on the track, sell the classic 911 and get a 993. If you want a unique car that is "yours" and also is impressively fast, do the 3.6 transplant with a varioram engine.

Well said CB. There is something about a classic car that has modern power.

The times I quoted were for a 2300 lb car with a late 915, so an '87 will not be quite as quick.

An early 911 with flares, ducktail, bigger brakes and suspension and 3.6 VR is nothing like a 993. They are totally different animals in experience and sensations. Both can be equally as fast but they do the job quite differently. Best to ride in each to get an idea before making decision.

when i blew up my 3.2, i contemplated between 3.4 high comp twin plug and 3.6. The cost projections for both were about the same, or 3.4 being on a little higher side. In a longer term, 3.6 is stock and i figured cheaper. yes, i'm a cheapo.
i would love to have 993 also. Do a GT2 body kit if you get it.
i'm jealous you have these options to consider.
whatever you do, continue investing in your driving skills as that is THE factor to get the car going. If you are just looking for a car that goes fast, 10+ yr old porsche is not the answer.

The thing about a built 3.4 from a 3.2 is that it is indeed probably as expensive as a conversion, but you start out with a new motor. 3.6 conversions are not free, and unless you know the motor going in, there will always be an unknown quantity to it.

This is a vid from a 993 with 320bhp and torque to match, he catches my blue carerra with 3.6 non vram (276 bhp) at about 1.39, mines the car with the black duck.

It was my first trackday so was slow in the corners but you can clearly see how much it pulls away on the straights. I've now had it remapped to 296 bhp so is even quicker, rarely bump into much on the road as quick.

This is a vid from the same day I think of an SC with a 3.6 chasing a 997, they are plenty fast if thats what you are looking for.

I say do it - you wont regret it.

Two data points:

Car 1 2200 lbs, ~310 hp VRam, 915, 265 V710 tires. 3.7 to 60 on the best launches G-tech.

2nd car 2400 lbs, ~295 hp Vram, G50, 3.9 to 60 best launches. 1/4 was generally 12.5- 12.7 @ 115-117.

Pete,
How about the water cooled early 911 monster? Any data points on that?
cheers,

Doug

Doug,

I've simulated the car so I know roughly what to expect, but I have not done any instrumented runs yet. I'll find out soon...

-Pete

Thanks everyone for the feedback!! Really appreciate it!

Can someone give me a rough idea of the major maintenance that needs to be done on a 3.6 engine? I thought I read that they normally require a top end rebuild around 70-90K. Can someone confirm that? I just want to know what to expect once I get a 3.6 engine what I will need to prepare for by way of maintenance. I believe LA dismantalers sells the 3.6 with about 40k miles for about 8K?

Doug? Is that the Doug I bought the heater control from here in Encinitas??!!? LOL This is Gerry from Carlsbad. Ha ha

I don't think the 993 needs a top end at that mileage more than a Carrera 3.2.

George

Gerry,
Indeed it is me. I'd propose buying one from a private party, in the car that you can do a PPI on or someone local through PCA. OR maybe a guy like Mark Kinninger (Black Forrest) or Jae Lee (Mirage International). They run shops that value their reputation, but also sell a lot of parts on the side. I bought a 3.6 that was supposedly rebuilt and it had no compression. I had to pay to rebuild it beyond the purchase price, which was quite expensive.

Like the dog - pound who represents that all full-sized dogs are two or three year olds (when they may really be nine year olds :D), I'm afraid LA Porsche Dismantler may suggest all their engines are at about 40k miles. LAPD tried to sell me some pistons and cylinders that were supposed great, nearly new and weren't even close to as described.

We can discuss when we meet up.

Doug

Doug's advice is good. As I stated above in my post, the 3.6 conversion can get really expensive if you need to get into it. That is one plus of building a 3.4 or 3.5 from scratch. I talked to someone the other day that got the same surprise on a 3.6 conversion-sounds like the tab ended up being $25K when all said and done.

3.6 Conversion
 

Does anyone know how much tire is needed in the rear for this conversion on good z rated radials?
What type of brake upgrade is recommended to mach the HP?

What size torsion bars needed in the rear for the heavier 3.6 vram for more bearable street driving with occasional track use in mind?

I can't tell you how much is needed but I can tell you what I have at it all works really well.
255/40/17's in the rear. They are Z rated. I run 27mm bars in the back. I've upgraded to 930 brakes .

For the first few years I ran 205/55//245/45 on 7 & 9x 16 Fuchs, they were fine. For more grip on track I upgraded to 235/40//275/40 on 8 & 9.5x17 Kinesis, these also are fine but a lot of work to fit. Currently 225/45//255/40 on the same 17" Kinesis, this is a great all round combination.

When a 3.6 is stripped down for the usual t/p it is very little heavier than a 3.0 or 3.2. I never felt the need to update t/b or sways from stock Carrera, there will be a lot of body sway on track with stock suspension though.

for street, stock brakes are fine, I used several iterations of bbk, settling on 993RS all around, 930 is the best choice for 15 or 16" wheels and would be fine all around.

What I wouldn't do is team a breathed on 3.6 w/ a 915 unless you are very careful. I have had 2x 3.6 and 1x 3.8RS in mine and found the torque from the 3.8 to be a poor match to a 915. The 915 w/ cooler seems to be very comfortablyy matched to both of the 3.6s I've used.

I did an unscientific test today of 0-60 in my '87. I confirmed the speedo calibration with my SatNav. Used the stopwatch on my iPhone (it was available when the urge struck).

I'm good for consistent 5 second times from a "rolling start 0-60" - essentially I just got the clutch out all the way, let the car get down to 900rpm in 1st and then mash it. I simply do not want to perform an intense jackrabbit start, even with the RSR clutch/PP. So this is a run to 6500 in first and then to 60MPH in 2nd. I have the stock 87 gearing/R&P and 255/40/17 rear tires. My car is heavier than stock thanks to extra oil cooling, amplified stereo, Big Red brakes, 993 Cup wheels and so on.

If I was doing this for a pink slip, a real "LeMans Start" would shave some serious time off.

I would recommend a 245 rear tire as a minimum, 225 minimum in the front. A 205 in the front will be inadequate if you drive enthusiastically.

You will want turbo all around or 964 fronts and Carrera rears minimum.

28 rear bar would be the minimum I would recommend.

A later aluminum 915 is fine (as long as you do not abuse it), just make sure you have an LSD and the side cover is a the reinforced type.

Lots of speculation here. Here is the version I'm almost through with:
67 911N
SC Front Suspension complete with steering.brakes, anti-sway bars and bigger torsion bars as well as Koni's and turbo tierods.
94 Porsche Motor-sports longblock 3.6 with Electromotive Crank fire twin plugs, PMO's and Bursch. Front fender mounted Carerra oil cooler with manual switched cooling fan and SC tank.
Rear adj spring plates, SC brakes, weltmeister antsway bar, re-enforced trailing arms and Konis and big torsion bars.
915 Transmission from SC
Wheels / tires Forged Alluminum (10 1/2 pounds each) 951 space saver rims 5 1/2 X 15 with Goodyear Eagle GT 195/65/VR15.
Narrow body, no flairs. Rear fog light. Metalic Silver org color, h4's.
Interior RS carpet set over dynamat, GTS Classics Sport Seats, Black Headliner Vintage roll bar, 6 pt harness and full SC instrumentation. Waiting on some custom made driveshafts, should be sometime this month. Had a couple of threads going on. Don't know, don't care what the 0-60 or 1/4 mile is or will be. Just know that it's gonna to a bad ass damn fast car.

[img]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads16
/At+Franzs+on+12+30+091265073715.jpg[/img]


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265073842.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1265073921.jpg

Goose that thing and that "rear" fog light may become a "front" fog light.

I cant tell you the 0-60. But i ran 13.3 with my 86 911 with a 993 varioram and a G50.

Bump- anyone else do the swap care to chime in? Bringing thus thread back from the dead

0-60 times are not very useful as they will depend on the clutch, gear/final drive ratios, weight of the car, tune of the engine, and tire choices.

Now, in my mind, power to weight ratios are more informative. A local 300hp varioram 3.6sc that is 2400lbs has 8 lbs per hp. A nissan gtr has 7:1. A 991 911s about 7.8:1. A 3.2 stock is about 13:1. My slightly hot, and lightened 1984 carrera with a mildly hot 3.4 will be about 8.3:1 (2300lbs, 275hp)

I have a nice 3.2 (stock) that just got a top end. I also have a rickety-a$$ 3.6 conversion in a 75 steel widely with a 915 that I am trying to bring back to life. With a Steve Wong chip, headers and exhaust on the 3.6, even with it still not running quite right (esp on the top end) the 3.6 is MUCH faster to the butt dyno. Like substantially! Keep in mind a 3.6 makes more torque from about 3,500-redline than a 3.2 does at its peak. This, combine with the low weight of a 75 converted car, will make is quick for sure, and it should feel even quicker than it is.

Drag racers always say 10lbs=1hp in the quarter mile. Now to go deep into theory.....my 996 turbo's curb weight is 3,395lbs, and my 75 3.6 is right around 2,370lbs. That 1,025lbs translates to 102hp...meaning the 75 can have 102hp less than the turbo and in theory be as quick 0-60 and quarter mile. At 420hp for the turbo, the 75 can be at 318hp. Steve Wong's website shows 964 3.6's (which mine is) with sport cats, sport mufflers right around 295HP on 91 octane. I live in Florida where I have a 93 octane chip in mine, and I have headers, not a sport cat...which means I should have a little more power than the cars on SW's site.....so my MATH says my turbo and my conversion would be very close (minus the AWD in the turbo).

As for driving experience......to me the air-cooled cars win, and the earlier ones the better. To me a 993 has a lot of 996'esq qualities (weight, suspension refinement, high quality interior, etc). With the cars in my quiver, the turbo rarely gets driven simply because it is a far more modern feeling car. It was my first, and yet it feels the least like a "Porsche" to me. I have realized I like the experience of closing my eyes (insert closed course, professional driver clause here) and hear/smell/feel what the racers in the 70's felt at LeMans, or Spa.....and that is the earlier air-cooled cars for sure. Also consider 993's are going up in value (have been for a while). I did not want to cut up a "good car" to make my project. Instead I found a converted car others struggled to finish. Then I am resurrecting/saving a car, vs cutting up a good one.

Good luck! Good news is al of your options will be great cars.