For 70/30 track street car - better to start with

[JeremyD]

a carrera (1984-1989) and take weight out or start with a pre galvanized and redo suspension - ad power, etc??

I'm not sure a want to spend the coin on a 993 right now.

[Dueller]

Better to start with someone else's well developed project...pennies on the dollar for what you'll spend either way. Unless tinkering and tearing up $100 bills gives you grins.

[GaryR]

An SC already built...

[JeremyD]

Yeah yeah - got that part - I don't have the cash for Gary's car

I like the idea of a lighter car to start with - my cabriolet was #3000 - so even with the 287 HP (that was mostly at the top end) it was still pushing (and braking and cornering) the weight.

If I start with a car that's 2400 lbs - get it down into the 2200 realm - than get 220 or so HP - then my HP/weight ratio actually improves -

[Shawn 357]

Originally Posted by Dueller

Better to start with someone else's well developed project...pennies on the dollar for what you'll spend either way. Unless tinkering and tearing up $100 bills gives you grins.

So true!

The other thing to take into consideration is what class and group you would be running in and more importantly want to run in the future if you develop the car further. Go to a couple events and see what cars the fast guys are running in the class you would want to run because if it is a competitive class they have that car for a reason.

[jpnovak]

there are a few really nice D-stock PCA cars in the classifieds. These will be well sorted with safety. Just plug in your 3.4 and hit the track.

[JeremyD]

Well this is just for DE right now - W2W is still a ways down the road if ever.

the cab - (and the 3.4) are on a transport headed to PA

[ghost1001]

Start light and the modify engine, suspension, etc....mid year cars can be had for a song..

I am going the mid year light weight roller with hot rod engine route.

It can get pricey of you do not start with an intact roller.

I am hoping to be around 2000-2200# track stripped with a hot 3.2ss, 225-250hp.

[Deschodt]

So what are you building, Jeremy ? An RS, RSR, R ? I see you've given up on the idea of a 993 or a cheap 996.... Sorry to hear your cab's gone, it was a beautiful car !

I'd say start with the galvanized one... I don't have stiffness measurements, but having owned a 73 and a 69, I can tell you the SC/Carrera feels a lot stiffer to begin with. You'll also likely save on rust repair, won't feel bad cutting up a rare early car, and maybe get fender flares for free if you go RS.... My backdated SC is down to 2500 lbs with very little effort (hood, bumpers, some interior) - I should think you can reach your weight goal just by going a little further than I did by also doing thinner seats, no carpet, maybe some lexan...

That said, I am not sure how much better then end result will be vs. what your cab was... Yes, a coupé will grant you more stiffness than your cab did, but I still think a car of the vintage you are looking at will require $$$ in motor and suspension mods and end up costing you as much as a used 996 or CaymanS with similar performance.... Prove me wrong though, I'm working on buying a Cayman S myself, I'm tired of schlepping the old SC to Sebring mid summer with no A/C and always wondering if something's finally gonna break! ;-) See you in March with whatever you decide to bring !

[JeremyD]

I don't know what I'm going to do..

[Kemo]

find an SC with broken head studs and an upset owner

[Dueller]

You mentioned w2w is down the road if ever. I understand the siren song but did it in reverse. For 12-15 years I campaigned an SCCA full blown race car running in races all over the country. While my RR car was undergoing an extensive/expensive rebuild, I took my 911 to a DE just for a diversion.

Afterwards, I liquidated my race operation and have been enjoying DE's. Reason: running a w2w a race car is like mounting a small military campaign. For every hour of track time I spent 100+ hours working on it. Yes I loved it, but after a while it is a real grind. I've totalled 4 chassis...can you say "instatnt depreciation?" Don't even know how many motors/trans/rear ends I've trashed. I understand the lure of w2w and don't regret doing it all those years. But I don't miss loading a tow vehicle/trailer, driving sometimes 1,000 miles roundtrip, wrecking, blowing 'em up, rebuilding them, yadadadada. Not to mention an average weekend with travel, lodging, food, beer for the crew, expendibles (tires/race fuel, etc), entry fees, licensing, etc making each long race wekend a $2K endeavor. And I was worn slap out going to work on Monday morning...good tired but still tired.

Now I drive to an event, play, drive home at a fraction of the expense and still have fun. But I truly understand wanting to go w2w.

That being said, a mildly modded sc/carrera with someone else having made the initial outlay is a hoot.

[JeremyD]

IF - and a giant IF I did w2w it would probably be a spec class to try and keep the costs down. I enjoy DE now - I enjoy instructing. The reason I got rid of the cab was only because of safety considerations. Sebring is a very fast track and the speeds we were consistently at in the red group made me reconsider my mortality. That and a few o ***** moments.

SO either put seats/harness and a cage in the cab - OR sell it and move on to a more suitable DE/Track platform. I chose the latter.

Now the reality hits - and while I imagine it would be easier and faster to do the suspension/etc again - I still would rather keep the costs to the lower end of the equation.

I have driven a few light cars - so really if I don't want to throw out the money for a 993 right now - then the lighter car seems like what I should target - economy sucks for me too -

[jorian]

It's not pretty but it seems like a good start.
FS: 1976 Porsche 911S, 3.0 liter

I'm in the same boat. Would like to go w2w but don't want to spend what it takes to get there. Being very competitive by nature I can for-see no end in cost to finish near the top.

[JeremyD]

I used to sailboat race - so I know exactly how that whole competitive thing goes...

[Dueller]

Not directly on point to your query, jeremy, but descholdt did a thread on a budget backdate of an SC to use as a track car. He offered some candid perspective about such a project...to each his own.

A quote from his thread...

Originally Posted by Deschodt

*************Wrapping up************(long)

Well, we finished the car, I made the track day date - only just - and I am back from Sebring, so I thought I should close this thread with a few final thoughts...I’ll put pictures so you don’t get bored ;-) And I will post pictures of the trim when that is done...

I finally found the key to a happy track day: arrive late. No more lines to register, practically nobody at tech (which I passed, whew), and since the good pit spots in the shade will have been squatted long ago anyway, why bother coming early?



Problem #1: I thought I was gonna get black flagged, that’s how bad the rubbing sound was from my Yokos, corner marshalls turning their heads when I arrived ;-) I had a few thoughts of tires rubbing so bad they would deflate and pitch me into a wall, so I took it gingerly on left turns during session#1...



Turned out that what was rubbing was the front of the tire on the area where the fender meets the bumper....
If you look at early cars, there not a hell of a lot of room there, 2 or 3 pubic hair’s width at best. Add 16” wheels which fit an SC - but not necessarily an SC with backdated fenders and voila.... GROANNNN..... Asking a guy in the paddock for “a hacksaw to fix my 911” was kind of a funny moment - you had to be there ;-) We sliced the bumper and fender bracket a bit, and it’s 90% better but not 100% yet...




I don’t need a tail... Cool ! The grippy Yokos and low ride height more than erase the instability over 100 mph. It’s solid, and the lack of horsepower ensures I will never exceed 130 on the back straight anyway, unless a sinkhole opens up ;-)

A word on R-compound tires such as those Yokos... They are now balanced but still groan at certain speeds, not exactly a daily driver tire... Do they grip better than a good street tire ? Well, yes, but.... To me the lateral grip was about 25% better, solid, predictable, and more importantly consistent from lap one to lap 10 or whatever... Where street tires degrade and become useless after 7 laps, those just look at the laws of physics and spit in their eye ! But more impressive to me was braking improvements, those puppies grip and BRAKE. But overall, given the trouble, cost, extra wheels and studs, I still think I’d have been much better off with a new set of very aggressive street tires. and $2300 in my bank account (unless that’s a washington mutual account).. I say that because I had unreasonable expectations, I thought that R tires would make a lightened SC “competitive” in my class. Heh Heh, not even close. They’re just nice grippy rubber... not magic in a can !

Temps: they did not magically fix themselves despite 8 years since this car was last tracked. 25 minutes into a session and I am between the second bar and red. Pah... I’ll cut the headlight bucket for next time ! You want air ? You’ll get air !!!

Rear bumper temps are A-OK now, so unless your muffler touches it, the heat reflective blanket for JCWhitney is indeed enough!

Belts: Slight rant here... Why is it some tracks give you hell about 5 point belts “expiration dates” and cheerfully let you drive on 30 year old seat belts ? I mean, 5 point harnesses are twice as thick, wider, see the sun 10hours a year, yet they go “baaaad” in 5 years and are so unsafe you need to use your 30 year old seatbelts ? not the case for me here, but I overheard an issue, and I wonder...

Other fun bit: My clutch pedal went 1/2 way to the floor and would not return unless pulled on... Like I don’t have enough work heel n’ toe’ing ! The car would still shift OK, but the pickup point moved way down and became an on/off switch And the pedal would not return the last inch of travel by itself. Odd... We looked at it, local guys looked at it, suncoast techs looked at it, and all scratched their heads..



I still ran another session without issues, but my drive home was no so nice. First gear (my hardest gear with a good clutch) would not go in anymore unless I gave it gas, but the other gears were still more or less fine... Stretched cable, lost helper spring, something broken, no idea.... Got home though !


In conclusion, there is nothing wrong with backdating an SC into a 70 car, use light bits and throwing out useless weight, and pretending it’ll be fast on track. Its just not true.

Having driven a boxster (not even S) and a 320 hp 996 at that same track, driving my SC was fun, but slow. Getting out of a chicane on what's left out of 180hp, 25 years later, takes a calendar, not a stop watch ! And let’s not debate driving “a fast car slow” vs “a slow car fast”, personally I think driving “a fast car fast” beats both of the above by a mile. Making that SC reasonably competitive in solo group would take another $$$ 200 lbs removed, a $$$ 3.6L engine or equivalent HP, and a whole new suspension. In other words, by the time you are finished, you’d have a chance of hanging out with a cayman, but you’d work twice as hard for it, and your car would have cost as much as a Cayman ;-) And you’d still have no A/C.. And ideally it'd look like this ;-)



Don’t get me wrong, I *love* driving old cars, I got a 912, and they do teach you stuff, but once you learned that stuff, well, seriously, they’re kinda slow, run hot, and breakdown more... No grunt out of chicanes, no top speed to write home about, and twice the work to get there, plus the chance you will get home on a flat bed !

Call me what you will, but I have enough experience now from 356s to 996s via 993, 986, 987, 911Sc, 912, to figure out what’s best at what for me ! I have more fun driving that kind of older car on the roads, canyon style. On track, I don’t see the logic of sinking $$$ into that platform, light or not, backdated or not.... .and then endure no A/C on the way home ;-) So I am going to refocus this car into a nice street car “plus”. No sense going track hog, it’s throwing good money after bad... Fun though, no doubt !

[175K911]

Hey Jeremy, I went down this road a few years ago before I bought my current '86. I just set my sights for a 915-gearbox Carrera. There were a lot of them out there for mid-teens and down. Picked up this one pretty cheap because to the owner it needed a lot- A/C was inop, heating didn't work, passenger seat was broken, rear sway bar bracket was broken (aren't they all?), and it had 175K miles on it. So I picked it up for a fantastic price when factoring all those "deficiencies" in, which of course were all things I'd be taking out anyway. So I pulled all the weight out, spent a couple thousand on the suspension, bolted on a set of headers and r-comps and went out and played. The drivetrain was in great shape so only needed basic maintenance.

With just the removal of unnecessary parts, addition of fiberglass Yellowbird-type bumpers and good suspension, I'm 2480 on the scales and that includes the roll bar. Car has been an absolute joy to drive and will run with the best of them in the twisties, only giving up distance on straights were HP rules. All for a surprisingly modest investment. What I didn't want was a fully set up and sorted race car because I still wanted to occasionally take it out on the street, and initially I didn't want to fork out the $$ to buy someone else's race car. For me it's been a 2.5 year slow and methodical journey to get the car where I want it and as I could justify the cost. If I had unlimited $$, I'd have been tempted to look at a car with much of the work already done but for me that wasn't an option, not if I wanted to put food on the table, pay for my daughter's tuition, go on vacation periodically etc. Oh, and it's been fun to do all the work myself, I know every bit of the car now.

[Deschodt]

Damn I write a lot !! Dueller, thanks for the plug, but maybe you should have cut and pasted just the last paragraph ;-)

I know Jeremy (he gave me spacers, even) and he is fully aware of this dilemma... In fact he and I agreed that it was pricey to make an older car fast, as he had a 3.6 in his cab and still struggled with a group largely composed of 997s and Gt3s... I was at the back end the whole time with my 180 hp ;-) He's fully aware of this... I guess he wants to go *real* light with a roof, or something... It's gonna have to be REAL light, I tell you !

Even then I think he'd be better off with a used Cayman S or 996 for track stuff, but that is pure "speed+convenience vs. money" logic. I know I enjoy driving my old SC as well !!! But for the instructor's group at sebring, IMO an upgraded oldie is not the best bang for the buck... It's not a matter of ego / being passed, it's a matter of driving your mirrors all the time, driving an old car in serious heat, 2h away from home....

Bring on the Cayman for me... I'm keeping the SC though !!!

[JeremyD]

Thanks Ed - and Dueller - Greg and I have had these discussions on a few occasions about the newer cars - especially at Sebring which is a very fast track.

I've seen some pretty poorly driven 996 and 997 (986 and 987) cars go fast where horsepower rules...

It is not as much fun constantly driving your mirrors.

[Deschodt]

I'll say it differently one last time, and then I'll shut up ;-)

I don't get it, Jeremy... You pretty much HAD the ultimate upgraded older 911, give or take a roof. Yes, yes, a roof and lighter weight will help, but I think not as much as you hope ;-)

By the time you have re-upgraded everything on the new coupé, you will have spent about the same as what you got for your cab (guessing here) and be no faster (if you can't swing another 3.6 conversion, which last I checked cost an arm and a leg). IMO at Sebring, no way a small weight loss trumps sheer HP.

To me, I'd have either kept your car if you were emotionally attached to older cars, or gone straight to a cheap 993, 996, 997, 987S... You mentioned Oh-$hit moments, the modern cars are safer in case of a boo-boo, and PSM is kinda nice to have... and again, you get a certain amount of extra reliability (on average, just by virtue of age), much better suspension out of the box, cheap and easy to upgrade springs, A/C on the way home....

I can see the oldie being fun, for sure, and competitive if you got $$$$ to pour into it, but on your budget, I don't see it (again, folks, based on the car Jeremy just sold which IMO kicked about as much a$$ as a Carrera of that vintage can kick)... I'd have kept your car or I'd go modern...