Running Hot....

[jkcrewsn]

My car has been running hot since I bought it. So I went to see my current favorite mechanic and he put a pyro on it for me. It read 260 deg. F. Now I don't have an external oil cooler, and it is pretty warm here in Hawaii. But he said that even without an external oil cooler it shouldn't be running that hot. He said I have some kind of friction causing the extra heat, most likely main bearings or something. Does this sound right to any of you? If so, what does this mean for the life of my engine? I am useing a synthetic oil, and do plan on getting the external oil cooler, just not sure when. I am mainly concerned about the state of my engine. Any comments?

[Early_S_Man]

Jeff,

Never knew they built a Turbo without a front cooler! I think your mechanic is feeding you a line of bs!

An engine making 300 hp or thereabouts has too many excess BTUs to be eliminated from the tail end ... to survive wihout an efficient front cooler installation!

[jkcrewsn]

Well that wasn't exactly what I wanted to hear. I know there is no ext. oil cooler, just the trombone style pipes. I was wondering about the lack of one myself. The history of this car is somewhat questionable. You may recall the 8k worth of body and paint I put into it after I bought it. Guess I will have to break down and match up numbers. I know, I should have done this before I bought it. Even if they don't match however, it is definitely a factory Turbo, and the price reflected the shape the car was in. Oh well, "buyer beware".
Thanks

[Early_S_Man]

Jeff,

It counds like you have a 'conversion' on your hands, but I guess you already had some suspicions.

[jkcrewsn]

Ya, but it's title number is a 930. Conversion with a fake VIN #? Is there a time limit on sueing for being sold as something other than what I was told I was buying?

[jkcrewsn]

Just double checked, VIN# definitely says it is a '79, U.S. 3.3L Turbo coupe.
I have my suspicions about the mechanic who was selling it for someone on another island. Could he have retrofitted the trombone cooler? The stereo sounded definitely different the second time I looked at it. Just trying to figure this out.

[campbellcj]

I'm pretty sure that falsifying VIN's/ title information is a felony! So the normal statute of limitations should apply - what is that, 7 years in most areas?

Regarding the temp problem, what does your dash temp gauge read?

Are you sure the engine is in proper tune, i.e. timing, and that the main engine cooler isn't grunged up or blocked?

Good luck,

[jkcrewsn]

I just had it retimed, now within specs. Not sure of the main cooler. The temp gauge I have is the one without numbers, and it is showing almost to the red bar at the top. Definitely too warm, normal should be (so I have been told), just slightly below half. I was also told that if the thermostat isn't opening soon enough, there is no way the trombone cooler will bring the temp. back down. Makes sense. Still worrying about why I don't have a front mount cooler though.

[campbellcj]

This is a WAG and certainly not the only possibility, but any signs that the car was in a front-end crash and the front-right fender area (where the cooler lives) was squished? I'm thinking that if the cooler got trashed somehow, maybe it was replaced with the trombone loop to save a couple bucks.

[jkcrewsn]

I am not sure what accident(s) it may have been in. I replaced everything short of the four fenders. So they may have already been replaced. But the body shop said it looked more like vandalism that was poorly repaired than a major accident, but who knows. I guess the bottom line is that I need to put a cooler up there before I kill the motor. I was going to my first DE / Car Control Clinic today, but decided not to, considering the risk. Thanks for your input.

[Yargk]

Is there some confusion here? The previous owner of my car put in a Carrera cooler and I added a front spoiler mounted cooler (as well as a spiffy interior switch for the fan on the carrera cooler that looks like a stock rear window defrost plunger.) However, wasn't the trombone cooler stock on 79 turbos? I know it was on the 76 and 77 model turbos. I was under the impression that they used the Trombone until 1980, the brass cooler from 1980-1985 (only 83 to July 84 in the US), and the Carrera cooler after that. I would like to know what came stock on the 79 turbos if it wasn't the trombone.

[SRT356/911]

260 degrees F is way too hot! Time trialing can get to those temps on 100F days of ambient. Just normal driving says something is wrong.
You might want to check the thermostat that is located on the top of the engine up by the on engine cooler. It is just right of center. You have to really look to find it. It is held on with 2 nuts, and prys upward out of the case. These thermostats stick and do not fully open after 20 years in the case. They have a rubber seal around them that should be lubricated with silicon paste.
Be sure to install in the correct direction. They are made by VDO and range in cost depending on where you purchase. Dealer is +$200. Parts Heaven new under $100.
You could also replace the trombone with a fender mounted cooler for less than $300.
Get that temp down!!

[Early_S_Man]

Paul Frere says the 3.3 Turbo got a 'proper oil cooler' to replace the trombone for '78 models, and the catalog pictures I have seen of Turbo coolers was a much larger unit that the Carrera unit with fan.

[Yargk]

Thanks for the info, now you've sparked my curiosity. I would like to see this thing, especially since I just ran out to my garage and looked in there. It seems you could just squeeze maybe another inch or two of width to the Carrera cooler and still get it to fit. Although the factory might have more room than I with my 245 front tires, I don't think the gained room from thinner tires would be in the right place. I'm surprised these coolers aren't more popular. Most people upgrade to Carrera coolers or aftermarket coolers which are about the same size. I would think people who want more cooling and not a front spoiler would flock to the larger turbo unit.

[jkcrewsn]

Yes, I would too. Also where I could find the aforementioned cooler for 300.00. Pelican has the whole kit and kaboodle for just over 1200.00. I was thinking of changing the front valance to a 930S style, and putting in a Mocal cooler. That will run around 1000.00 for the parts. --Wheres that dang Visa card--

[beepbeep]

Jeff!

My friend has a euro 77' 930 and it also has "two turns of pipe" front oil cooler. As far as i understand, you do have a oil cooler, but it's not af later "radiator"-style.

I don't know how many Celsius a Farenheit is...but my 930 is exactly opposite of yours. It runs very cool. Temp-gauge never goes past 9 o'clock.


Check theese things:

#1 It might be the termostat that never opens. Drive for a while and touch front cooler "loop"...if it's hot then the termostat is working.

#2 If #1 is OK, check for pinched pipes to front cooler.

#3 Check for dirt underneath cooling fan-shroud.

#4 Finnally, check for mixture being too lean.

On the contrary what people say...930's are pretty cool running engines.

Cheers!

[SRT356/911]

BAT Inc advertises in Excellence for a kit: '911 Front fender radiator Oil Cooler Kit. $279.00 Soecial Price. Includes Mocal 19 Row Oil Cooler, Oil Hose and fittings (assembled). www.batinc.net.
I am sure that PP would match their price.
You clearly have something wrong with this car that this kit may or may not help. You have to sort it out before you spending your $ for add ons.
You have been given some fine suggestions in this forum. If you follow them you will find the problem. Sort that out and then look at where you want to go from there.
Let us know what you find.

[speeder]

Well, you do have a front cooler- trombone is an oil cooler, just not a very good one. You need at least a factory carrera cooler w/fan on 930 in hot climate. As others have stated you may have other temp-related issues to work out, but the good auxiliary cooler is still mandatory. I got an OEM carrera cooler and lines for cheap from a generic parts house; it is Modine brand. Don't know if it is true OEM or copy, but don't care. It has 930 part # and is aluminum, works great and cost well under $300 new. If Pelican or Porsche outlets won't match, check any parts house w/ a Modine book of listings. It's nothing but a tiny radiator- even $250-300 is a lot if you ask me.

I wouldn't waste time worrying about what should have come on your car, just make it right before you fry it. Also get a new mechanic- if your main bearings were making your engine run 50deg. hot, you wouldn't make it to the end of the block. Think about that one. Good Luck!

[Rufblackbird]

Jeff,
Who's the mechanic? I have a feeling I know who you're talking about. I thought today's DE was cancelled?

[masraum]

You do have an external cooler, just not a good one. The "trombone" "two-turns of pipe" cooler is only good for low hp cool climate apps. You need a better cooler. If you are warry of the mechanic who sold you the car or was your middle man being a mechanic he could have removed a "good" turbo cooler for himself or another customer's car and then swapped the crappy one to your car. I would get a good cooler on there, make sure the lines to the trombone are getting hot. My understanding is that the thermostat should open at 185F which I think would be about 85C. The temp gauge you have should be 60C/~150F at the first mark, 90C/~200F at the second mark, 120C/~250F at the third mark, and then 150C/300F at the red mark. According to Bruce Anderson 250 is "too damn hot!" If you are running temps that high make sure you have synthetic oil in as they stand up to heat better. On top of all of this you don't want to end up having to replace a turbo or engine.