Decision Time: 3.6 or 3.2/3.4
 

I have spent a great deal of time reading the archives regarding the transplant of a more-or-less stock 3.6 transplant vs. a professionally built 3.2 or 3.4 from a 3.0 crank case.

My cost analysis of the 3.6 transplant into my '72 narrow bodied car comes to about $15k for a Euro '96 to '98 993 motor with all of the trimmings from Dr. Timmins. This would be via his "crate motor" service and would consist of a 993 style exhaust and the Cyntex chip, Sachs clutch kit and all the parts necessary to perform the "operation". This estimate excludes the other necessary modifications that would be "required" to the vehicle to make the car transplant ready, i.e brakes, oil cooling, transmission,etc.

I have sent my cost analysis spreadsheet to Dr. Timmins and await his response regarding my estimates of costs.

If I include oil cooling (already have B&B fender mount oil cooler with fan), beefier torsion bars front and rear and a modification of my Dansk stainless steel muffler to accept the above, I get a number of approximately $18k.

This will be a "street sleeper" project and I think my rebuilt "S" braking system will be up to the task and I think my 7:31 r/p (in an early Mag case with an alum. billet bearing cage) will as well. Already have 22mm Weltmeister front and rear sway bars, turbo tie rods and the rear aluminum control arms with new bearings and Neatrix bushings.

The above 3.6 may make 275 to 280hp at the crank; I would like 300hp, but that may be overly enthusiastic.

Option 2: Have a 3.2 or 3.4 built from a 3.0 alum. SC case. According to B.A.'s book, I think I can get 275hp at the crank. I would use an Andial P/C set, dual plug heads and add a second Electromotive set-up to provide spark (I already have one Electromotive set-up). PMO 40mm or 46mm Carbs and could use my present SSI/Dansk set-up. Maybe even a 3.2 crank for 3.4Ls. Cam would probably be a GE-60, but perhaps a GE-80 grind. I think 40mm carbs and a GE-60 would be a better street set-up for a 3.2/3.4 motor . . .


So, assuming the cost for either of the above scenarios is very close, what is the "wiser" choice? One motor (3.2/3.4 from a 3.0) would be "fresh" via a very reputable shop (Black Forest in San Diego) and the other choice would be more-or-less a close to OEM 3.6 "crate motor" from a very reputable transplant "artist" - horsepower output would probably be very similar.

I will probably have to make this decision in the next 10 days, so any help the "elders" of the Pelican board could provide would be greatly appreciated! :)

Happy Holidays to all!

Best Regards,

Kurt

I would go for the 3.6 which I feel will be more reliable and its fuel injected which is great when it comes to cold starts and full throttle at low rpm. Careful with that transaxle in 1st gear.

You can do the 3.6 for less than that. Even if you don't hunt around for a bargain engine (I paid $5000 for a 17K motor), you can do the project in stages. You don't have to jump in with the B&B headers and muffler right away, for example. In my case, I'm still running a Carrera exhaust, and still enjoying the additional low-end torque (which is nice, for street use), with the option of maxing out my horsepower (and the project's budget) later.

The chief virtues of the 3.6 swap are simplicity and reliability. Custom-built engines seem to always proceed as once-in-a-lifetime engineering projects. Randy Jones' engine is phenomenal, for example, but it looks like he's still working some of the kinks out of it. A stock 3.6 with low mileage offers a lot of power and torque -- with a minimal risk of initial complications.

And heck, when it starts to get old, you can do the Euro 3.8 kit or drop in a supercharger. ;)

Go 3.8
 

My mates got a 3.8ltr in his 964.......... way to go......if I keep my 1987 Cab I think I'll go this way too. Look into it...otherwise definitely follow Jacks suggestion for the stock 3.6 with room to move later.

My 2cents

Cheers
Mark

Kurt, I don't think you fully realize the extent of your project. I see the term "street sleeper" and become a little nervous. It really doesn't matter whether it's a 3.2/3.4 or a 3.6. You will be adding 30-40% more power. Adding a 7:31 gear just makes your life more interesting.
How do you intend to get the power to the ground? Will bulging fenders still qualify as a sleeper?
A 901 isn't really built for that power. A 915 will solve most of those problems. The 7:31 will allow you to spin almost any street tire thru 1st and 2nd gear almost at will.
Even a 2.7 RS spec motor with 210-220 hp in an early car can be close to a handful and pretty quick as well.
Good luck.

For a street car go with the 3.6 conversion and take advantage of the smooth power delivery and factory fuel injection setup and less overall fuss. The stock 3.6 should be at the top of anyone's list if they want more power and don't care about originality - let the factory do the work for you.

I have also looked into this dilema. In short, if it's for street I would go with the 3.6. You can't beat the reliability and newer fuel system. My choice would be a 993 3.6 with a lightened flywheel from Anidal, chip from Steve at Rennsport, and RS mufflers to a 993 exhaust system. If for street and track, go with the 3.6, too. You can realistically get very close to 300 HP from a 95-98 3.6 with bolt on items. For track only, start with a 3.0 /3.2 and build it to your specs to allow the RMPS to go into the mid 7000's.

It's gotta be 3.6...
 

Kurt....you are the bank when it comes to taking on this transition. I happen to agree with Jack on this issue. When I did my transformation, I sold my 3.0 motor for $5,000.00, and purchased my 3.6 for $6,000.00. I can't understate the "value" of torque. Also, 300HP is attainable with a few augmentations (ie,chip).
You are very good hands if you're talking with Dr. Timmins. My car started as a 88 Carrera, so my G-50 tranny works great with this transformation.
BTW...when you finish, you will laugh all the way down the freeway, or through any road-course.

Good luck,
Curt

Go with the 3.6 and listen to the guys on this board who have done the transformation. If you want call the guys at the racers group. I was up there and they had a car on the rack that they stuffed a 3.6 motor in with a g50 tranny-street car. They installed a 9llr muffler and put a unichip in it. With the unichip they are able to put it on a dyno and adjust it via software to conform to your needs. They pulled almost 340hp out of that motor. Great guys and more than willing to help out.
Good luck-your going to have a screamer-i'm jealous.

Kurt,
I'm tempted to suggest a single (or even twin) turbo engine as an option to the 3.6 you're considering. With a properly built engine, variable HP is only a knob twist away. The only external concession would be a tail to accomodate the intercooler. All other mods to brakes, transaxle and chassis remain valid. It's only money :-)

Regards,
Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

I would also go stock 3.6 for a street car, If any competitive use in the future might be contemplated, I would build the best motor (whatever that might be) according to the rules for the class/club you might someday participate in. I would also be nervous about using a 901 and the tires available for a narrow bodied car with that much torque. An aluminum 915 would be the minimum I would think (with its own cooler if racing). Maybe 225s on R wheels would be enough with judicious application of the throttle! Good luck with whatever you decide, Kurt. I'm sure you will keep us posted.

Randy Wells

Thanks for everyone's input! Looks like there is overwhelming support for the 3.6 transplant route.

I will not be using a 901, but a mag case 915 with a 7:31 r/p which is built with a billet bearing cage and a 29:21 top gear. While an aluminum case 915 with an 8:31 r/p would probably be the better choice, I will try the mag 915 since I already have it(!) and hope it works out for street use. Looks like Jack got a good number of miles out of his early 7:31 at the track before it "died" under track conditions. I guess an option is to add a cooler to my present 915.

Dr. Timmins thought $9500 for a late model Euro 993 motor was a good estimate, and he was able to shave off about $2300 from my original estimate. So it looks like I may be able to pull off the motor part of the transplant for around $15,000+/-.

Thanks again for your input and I will keep you updated regarding the progress!

Happy Holidays!

Regards,

Kurt

Kurt, depending on the final power output, have you considered a G50? Maybe even a G50 with electronically controlled pnematic shifting! cheers.

Sounds like a fun car - count me as an enthusiastic vote for the street sleeper look (I will have the New Zealand cousin - black with a hot 3.0).

I am going for a high power 3.0 rather than a stock (chipped?) 3.2 because:

1. It is there (lack of supply in New Zealand)
2. I want to do my own maintenance and I can understand it
3. I wanted peakyish power delivery
4. 250hp is enough for me

This is in descending order.

I ruled out a 3.6 due to installation difficulties and cooling difficulties. You look to have this under control (Steve Timmins is a lot closer! Plus our $ is worth about US$42c). Plus the car is a '69 and a bit old for this sort of thing for craps sake, and I have to change virtually everything else (tranny, brakes, etc) because of it (also a T) and I am going to run out of $$$ :D

I am told the S brakes will be ok for street use but fairly useless on the track. I am upgrading S calipers I think, but will eventually drop the $$$$ on 930 brakes if I find they are inadequate (this is a time I call "the future").

On a plus note the 2.0T is running like a champ after a couple of long journeys and some "STP Fuel System Cleaner" snake oil. It just makes less than 1/2 the power I want.

Oh, and another thing.

I never understand the "too much power" for the tyres concept (brakes are a different story).

Just exercise the right foot gently - like driving in the rain. I figure you are only in trouble when full throttle in any gear cause wheelspin :)

On that note, I think Kurt posted earlier that he was trying to chase down some 911R wheels, so he should be fine.

Cam

It is much easier to drive a car with too little power than one with too much power. Too little power and you have removed the wheelspin problem, too much power and wheelspin is always there and ready to bite, usually at the most inopportune time.
Lite weight car, 2200 lbs?, 275 hp?, and you have a power to weight ratio of 8.0 to 1. This is turbo, Viper, Z-06, territory. The turbo and the vet have 295/30/18 tires on the rear.
You may be able to get 225's under a early car fender.
You are improving everything except your ability to put the power to ground.

I think, when finsihed, my car will weigh in at 2400 to 2450 pounds - stock form is about 2350 pounds. One benefit of the 911 vs. most of the high horsepower cars (front engine, rear drive) you mention is the rear weight bias of the 911 and the fact that I will be adding more weight to the rear in the transplant process. This should mitigate, to some degree, the need for massive rear tires on a street car.

And, the use of a 225 tire in the rear on a 7" "R" wheel should also mitigate, to some degree, the "lack of tire" problem in the my conversion. I think for a pure street application the problems of the big horsepower transplant will be less magnified than it would on a track car!

One problem is I am at a point where I need to get a working motor in my car now. I will be able to consider adding SC type rear fenders with fatter tires as I learn how this car performs on the street with its narrow fenders. This will be a learning process and involve possibly a few steps to set-up the car. I will probably also consider an alum. case 915 with a 8:31 r/p in the future, but again I need to see what I end up with after the transplant then go from there.

I am reminded of the 934 style Speedster that was built with a twin turbo 962 engine by Jerry Woods - the car made almost 600 horsepower and would apparently spin the tires in first through third gears with 13" of rubber in the back! I am sure many folks would call that a foolish endeavor, but I bet it made a very fun and exciting grocery runner!

Regards,

Kurt

It is my goal to be able to lite 'em up in second gear - at will.
There is no such thing as too much power.
I've driven my V8 S10 in the snow for over a decade and never once ended up in a ditch. My V8 Monza will blaze the tires at 60mph. You have to treat the power with respect.
On that note, go for as may cubes as you can afford. Upgrades will come later, after you get used to it.
Also, skinny tires will save your tranny. They are not always a bad thing.