Fix old, or buy new(er) Porsche?

[jclc]

I've had my 74 911 coupe for about 8 years. I love this car and really enjoy working on it, but never liked its faded beige paint job. For years, I've been planning to give it a really nice paint job- pull all the glass, engine, and tranny, and take it to a really good, high-end paint and body shop recommended on this BBS.

The cost for this is a little higher than I expected (about $8K) but all his work looks top notch; he's done a lot of 911's, does them all the time. I was really looking forward to getting this done, he does awesome work.

The engine has about 120,000 miles on its last rebuild, but runs great. Before pulling the engine, I checked compression, and I have 2 cylinders really low (98 and 110 psi, with all others from 120 to 140 psi). Looks like its time to rebuild top end, and I expect this will mean another 2 or 3$K

I have the money, but do you think I am putting too much $ into a 74 CIS? When I'm done, I'll have invested about $11K beyond the $8K I spent on it many years back, could get an SC for that money. However, I dont really want to trade it for a Carrera or an SC- I like the 74's light weight, and simple plumbing.

Have I been blinded by love? Any comments appreciated...

[Clark Griswald]

Unless you are trying to create a concourse show car, I would suggest getting paint job priced in line with the car's value. You can get a very presentable job for much less than $8k. Especially if you are pulling the glass and trim yourself.

[kumma]

some one once told me your better off with the devil you know than the one you don't.

[bhaubold]

Craig,

Ain't it the truth! Well put.

[Saffs]

I agree, get a paint job more inline with the cars ultimate value. If you sold the car to get say, an SC (rather heavy, overweight things; engine attempts to make up for the extra weight), you'd then be selling your car presumably for very little, because of needing a paint job and poss. top end too. If you're in love with the car, invest in it's future but keep it commiserate with its ultimate value. It sounds like its that time in its life where it needs the work to make it enjoyable for the next 8 years!
Good luck.

[pjv911]

Jeff maybe you just need a valve adjustment to get back the lost compression. Just a thought of hope for ya.

[Early_S_Man]

While I don't like the idea of paying someone else $8K to do a paint job that I can do myself, I also don't believe in putting an artificial limit on what you do or spend on your car ... based on what other people think your car is 'worth' ...

Even if you have never touched a spray gun in your life ... if you buy the right tools, and take the time to do the prep work right, you can paint your own car, and have it look better than 99.9% of the professionals out there!. Preparation and priming is 90% of the work, and if you have gone that far, and have a perfect base for the outer coats, then anybody can put the color coat on it and have it look good, assuming the additional color sanding and buffing and polishing are done carefully. At every step of the process, you may have to go back and correct mistakes, accidents or problems caused by unexpected events, but if you are patient, and willing to spend the time, the job needn't cost more than $1500-$2000 includind buying the compressor, spray and touch-up guns, and all materials and required ancillary tools for the job ... including the best epoxy primer and color coat materials on the market!

As far as your engine goes, why be limited to keeping the CIS when you do the rebuild? RS 2.7 pistons & cylinders, Webers, and GE-60 cams could wake that 2.7 up rather nicely! You already have the correct exhaust system for that combo, and many later SC and Carrera owners lust after that same exhaust system ... that came stock on your car!

[Don Wohlfarth]

I agree with Warren that you can paint your car for under 2K and have a great paint job. Your only problem is how long do you want this project to go on. Do you have a place to work on it? How far will you take the paint down? Some primers will let moisture thru to the metal that will cause future problems.
I don't question the 8K price as it may be fair. I wouldn't put a 8K paint job on a car unless it was some kind of show car. With you removing the glass, trim, etc, you should be able to find someone to paint it with a very good paint job for maybe half that amount.
At the same time I'm not a real good one to tell you not to see how much money you can pour into a car.

[Oldporsche]

With as much prep work as you are talking about, I bet you can find someone to paint your car for 1/2 of the price you have been quoted. If you are willing to do more prep work, and work with a body-paint man, you can really get a very good job and cut the half price even further!

The satisfaction you will have with your "new" car will far outweigh the purchase of another used one with its "new problems."

Good luck,
David Duffield

[rstoll]

Show paint on daily driver = anxiety. Should be able to get decent refinish for 4k. Use the balance you save there to get the mojo in shape.

[Efrain68912]

At a minimum, you could pull the glass (a friend helps here) and strip the car with aircraft chemical stripper yourself. Its messy (get the neoprene gloves and a mouth cover) but it is kind of fun to peel off the old paint yourself. My father and I disassembled the 912 ourselves, saved a bundle on labor.

Efrain
68 912 Coupe

[Jim T]

I too have painted a couple of things, a car and a trailer.

Painting a car is one of those things I just had to do, to get the experience under my belt. Like rebuilding an engine, learning to weld, etc.

Yes, you could do it yourself, and get pretty good results. Although I think beating 99% of pro shops would be tough to do, esp. if you are painting in your garage. You are at a huge equipment disadvantage (downdraft booth with filtration, humidity control, etc.). And, simply, at an experience disadvantage.

But, you definately can get very nice results, if you have at least some talent and a ton of patience (it took me over 2 months to paint my old 911).

I enjoyed the experience, but I wouldn't do it again. The downsides:

(1) It takes a ton of time, and is really, really messy. You have to have an appropriate place to do it. I had to hide the project from the neighbors, not really easy to do when you are hosing out a river of sanded primer, etc. every day. Most people don't have the time to do this, or the proper space. I probably spent 250+ hours on the project. I had the time then, but not anymore.

(2) You have to be very careful with today's paints, which are really very toxic and probably illegal to use at home now. I had access to a painter's suit, with respiration. I would not feel comfortable with anything less.

(3) Unless you have a lot of natural talent, or some related experience, its hard to get really professional results. You can redo your work, but unless you are using lacquer, you will have to wait at least a day for it to dry before you can sand and reshoot.

(4) You will have to invest in some equipment, you need a decent gun, a decent sized compressor, some very oood way of drying the compressed air (water filters, etc., because condensation will ruin your work), safety stuff, etc. I agree you can get all the materials and stuff for under $2K. (Although you likely won't use any of it, other than the compressor, again!).

The upsides:

(1) It can be somewhat relaxing, sanding, sanding, sanding, etc.

(2) There is a TON of satisfaction when its done. With my car, it simply blew people away when I told them I painted it in my garage. That was kinda fun.

(3) As long as you apply enough material, most imperfections can be removed by colorsanding and polishing.


(BTW, for $8K you should be getting something pretty nice. I've seen some pretty nice $4500 jobs, and that is at LA labor rates).

[Bill Douglas]

I don't recommend you do this, but I added it for your and Warrens amusement.

I once painted a VW Bettle out on the street, and probably half painted a number of cars that drove by at the time. Aand the results were incredible! it looked like a brand new VW.

It's all in the prep and paint viscosity.


Bill '79SC

[Superman]

I'm going to agree with Warren (always a safe bet). The big expense is in prep. It takes LOTS of time to prepare a car for a really good paint job. Once the body is straight and smooth with primer an any necessary base coats, shooting color is pretty quick and easy, by comparison. Conceivably, a primed, ready-to-paint car could roll into the booth and be finished in a few minutes. Just like painting anything else, it's all in the prep work. All those hours of prep account for 80% of the cost of an expensive ($8k) paint job.

[jluetjen]

There is an old adage in Racing that "Speed is a function of money -- how fast do you want to go?" The same applies to this job. If the body shop is good, they should be able to give you a couple of price points in addition to the doing the whole job. For example, what is the price if the car comes in with glass and trim removed? How about stripped? etc. Their answers should give you an idea how much you want to spend in hours and dollars. It sounds like Warren is one of those guys who can afford the hours and doesn't want to part with the dollars. I wish we all had that kind of time

[sova4ja]

Hi Jeff

check my site out.Project 911s it will be of great help. a litle tip from personal experience, do every thing by your self U will apreciate it more but leave the paint job to the pros.


Dr Simon Sky

[rscupper]

To get back to your original question - yes, you should keep the car. You're very fortunate to have found a car that you really enjoy owning and as someone mentioned, why go looking for problems?.

The paint is a minor thing compared to the rest of the joy. If you think you're baby deserves an $8000 paint job, go for it. Or temper your passion by shopping for an equally well done $4500 job. Whatever - as long as you're happy.

I definitely agree with upgrading to the 2.7 RS components and Webers. I recently did the same thing (plus way too many other goodies) to a '74 CIS and cannot believe the difference! Do it and love it. I'm no wrench but it sounds like you know what you're doing, so maybe you should try doing the mechanicals yourself. Also remember, Webers won't pass smog; however, I'm gambling that the California smog exemption will kick in for us in 2003.

Good luck and enjoy you're friend for many, many more years

[jclc]

Everybody-
Thanks for the interest, and time you took to comment on this. After hearing what everybody had to say, Ive decided to:

1. Keep the car, its 'the devil that I know'.

2. Try Warren's trick with the B12 Chemtool to see if that will recover compression. Its worth a try, and this car runs really well, hate to pull it open.

3. While I'm at it, look at valve clearances again to be sure.

4. Rebuild, if the motor needs it, and stay with the 1974 CIS hardware. Now that I finally figured out how to set CIS, I kinda like it. At risk of sounding pansy, this car already goes fast enough to scare me... But, does anyone know if I increase compression ratio from stock 8:1 to 8.5:1 (by installing 1975 911S pistons), will the engine run properly with a 1974 911 CIS setup?

5. Get the $8K paint job (a little man inside says: oh, oh, now you've done it!).

The painter wants $$ more than I figured on, but Ive been saving up for this for years. He's gonna pop out the glass, replace all the rubber, plated parts and headliner, update the mirrors to 77 version, change all the trim to satin black, and do an awesome paint job. I dont have the time, skill, real estate, or patience for this.

Love has never made sense, and I do love this car

[jluetjen]

JCLC;
Regarding your question about how the CIS will fare with the '75 S pistons -- it should do fine. A nice thing about the CIS system is that it will accomodate engine changes (within reason) since it meters the air going into the engine. If the engine pulls more air, then the CIS will inject more fuel. (BTW, the MFI systems don't meter the air which is why they are not so forgiving to changes.) You might need to fiddle with the adjustments for idle or enrichment, but you should be fine since your changes are not going "over the top". IT racers in the SCCA routinely increase their CR by .5 while using the stock injection and I've never heard of it being a problem.

For extra insurance you might want to consider using Premium gas if you don't already, but most Porsches of that time were designed to use regular.

[TSwede]

That's 'commensurate' not 'commiserate'.. though if he sells the car commiserate might be the right word..

Love ya man!

Swede

Bright green 2.7