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Specs for Porsche 908/3

Folks,

I didn't know where else to ask, I am looking for the 908/3 spec. In particular, I needed the tire sizes.

Does anyone here have a reference book?

I figured you folks would be the best and most knowledgeable. Thanks for looking.

Jim
Old 08-18-2010, 11:38 AM
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The 908/03 “VW Transporter” won three of the four races it entered in 1970-1.
Nine were built in 1970.
They were modified for 1971 with large rollbars and little tail fins.
The 910 transaxle (same as used in the 909 racer) moved the driver and engine far forward by having the differential at the rear.
The Type 928 engine with 32 valves all angled away from the center was developed for the 908/3 but never used.
The 908 engine got water cooled heads for the 908/03
In 1970 it weighed 1200#, almost 200# lighter than the 908/02. It gained 40# for 1971.
wheelbase 90.6” (same as 908/2)
Front track 60.7” (2”wider than 908/2)
Rear track 59.3” (2”wider than 908/2)
After the Targa Florio
Rear wheels 15 x 15
Front wheels 11 x 13
Goodyear race tires were used.
Rear wheels were 17x15 for the 1971 Nurburgring race.

One is here in Colorado I can inspect for you.

Most of this is from Ludvigsen, 3rd Ed.

Best,
Grady
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Last edited by Grady Clay; 08-18-2010 at 12:37 PM..
Old 08-18-2010, 12:33 PM
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Grady:
I deeply, deeply respect your knowledge of arcane Porsche history.....but please re-check water cooled heads employed for 908/3. I don't think that was the case.
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:00 PM
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Actually, I'm pretty sure that the 908 DID experiment with water cooled heads. They may not have seen wide-spread use, but forged the way for water cooled heads in later turbo'd cars.

AM
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Old 08-18-2010, 01:51 PM
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The air-cooled [type] 928 [heads] failed to give good results. It was too difficult to achieve the needed heat-dispersing finning and air flow around the valves and heads with duplicated valves. Hans Metzger moved directly to an engine with a similar head layout cooled by water instead of air. Only the heads themselves were changed. These new heads retained the previous valve angles in both planes as well as the bolt-on casting that carried the tappets and camshafts. In place of the finned cylinders, a ruggid aluminum water jacket was provided for the four cylinders on each bank. Inserted into this, and pinched by the heads at the tops, were aluminum wet cylinders sealed along their flanks by single O-rings. Bore surfaces of both Nikasil and Chromal were tested.

© 2003 Carl Ludvigsen
Porsche: Excellence Was Expected by Carl Ludvigsen. 3rd. Ed.
page 446.

In the 3rd. Ed., Chapter 20 “908: Three-Liter racer, 1968-1971” p.p. 424-449, has an incredible amount on information not found elsewhere.

There are lots of pictures of these water-cooled engines but I have never seen one in person. I think (but don’t know) that these engines were only used in the Factory Entries in these four races. Some probably got into private hands when they were sold off.

Most 908s use the air-cooled engine that was a 911 6+2-cylinder with four cams but only 16 valves. There were two versions with different crankshafts and firing orders. I think some early version 908s may have used the 3-liter type 771 “Fuhrmann” engines at some point in their careers.

I think this may have been one of the most technically exciting times at Porsche K.G. Keep in mind that the 917 was also being raced and continued to develop. The first turbochargers were probably on the dyno.

Best,
Grady
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:10 PM
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So the whole thing was water cooled? Then they must not have raced this type 928 engine. They all have fans from what I see in photos.


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Old 08-18-2010, 02:45 PM
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Thanks guys, I knew you'd come through. Thanks for the offer to look at a 908/3 for me but that is not necessary.

I appreciate all the collective knowledge.

Jim
Old 08-19-2010, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grady Clay View Post
The air-cooled [type] 928 [heads] failed to give good results. It was too difficult to achieve the needed heat-dispersing finning and air flow around the valves and heads with duplicated valves. Hans Metzger moved directly to an engine with a similar head layout cooled by water instead of air. Only the heads themselves were changed. These new heads retained the previous valve angles in both planes as well as the bolt-on casting that carried the tappets and camshafts. In place of the finned cylinders, a ruggid aluminum water jacket was provided for the four cylinders on each bank. Inserted into this, and pinched by the heads at the tops, were aluminum wet cylinders sealed along their flanks by single O-rings. Bore surfaces of both Nikasil and Chromal were tested.

© 2003 Carl Ludvigsen
Porsche: Excellence Was Expected by Carl Ludvigsen. 3rd. Ed.
page 446.

In the 3rd. Ed., Chapter 20 “908: Three-Liter racer, 1968-1971” p.p. 424-449, has an incredible amount on information not found elsewhere.

There are lots of pictures of these water-cooled engines but I have never seen one in person. I think (but don’t know) that these engines were only used in the Factory Entries in these four races. Some probably got into private hands when they were sold off.

Most 908s use the air-cooled engine that was a 911 6+2-cylinder with four cams but only 16 valves. There were two versions with different crankshafts and firing orders. I think some early version 908s may have used the 3-liter type 771 “Fuhrmann” engines at some point in their careers.

I think this may have been one of the most technically exciting times at Porsche K.G. Keep in mind that the 917 was also being raced and continued to develop. The first turbochargers were probably on the dyno.

Best,
Grady
Hi Grady,

Did you get my PM?
Old 08-19-2010, 05:23 AM
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Grady:

Your citations from the Ludvigsen book are indeed correct,and I know about them....but I still have doubts that 908/3 was ever raced with water cooled heads.

The text you show is taken out of the fuller context of the preceding and following paragraphs in the Ludvigsen book. The "experiments" with the 908/3 engine was in recognition that all the major racing cars of the time were fully water cooled, and therefore could allow narrow-angle valve design, and also (more importantly)...4 valve head design. It was mentioned that the common 3 liter engine size used by 908/3 was the same 3 liter size used for Formula 1,....and contemporary 4 valve, liquid cooled F1 engines were getting 450 hp....trumping the air cooled, 2 valve 908 engines mightily by about 100 hp.....

So......

Mezger's tests included changing the long-established Porsche air-cooled 2 valve heads...to *experiment with* ( my emphasis) both 4 valve air cooled heads and also water-cooled 4 valve heads.

My point?.....these were all *experiments* to determine either the direction Porsche was to take in future production cars...or even to see if there was a viable F1 engine possibility..... BUT... to my knowledge.... there were no 908/3's ever raced that used water cooled heads. Can you help establish if that facet was true or not?

BTW...car with roundel #4, is a 908/3 I've seen and examined a number of times...car is currently campaigned in vintage racing by Phil Daigrepont of Kenner, La, and I don't ever remember seeing water cooled heads..although I can be wrong here and will gladly stand corrected if that is the case.
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Last edited by Wil Ferch; 08-19-2010 at 05:10 PM..
Old 08-19-2010, 05:03 PM
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Yes, I posted the photos to add support to the theory that 908s were raced only with air-cooled heads.

What about the "908/4" with the ATL motor?
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:17 PM
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908/4..... or even the 908/3/Joest Turbo car of 1976 ( called "908/3 Turbo"...Ludvigsen, Vol 2, P.683 and P.694) ultimately became the 936 ( hmmm...the cited photos of 908/3 Turbo looks eerily like 936, I mean "exactly" like 936...I wonder if Ludvigsen makes a mistake here in describing the pics? See P. 717)...is a completely different chapter in this saga.

Summarizing...my issue is the second one of Grady's statements, repeated here --->

" ....The Type 928 engine with 32 valves all angled away from the center was developed for the 908/3 but never used.
The 908 engine got water cooled heads for the 908/03......"
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Last edited by Wil Ferch; 08-21-2010 at 04:22 AM..
Old 08-21-2010, 04:20 AM
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According to Barth the water cooled 4 valve heads never left the experimental shop, it was felt that the added power would not offset the extra weight required for the water cooling system
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Old 08-21-2010, 09:40 AM
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