Motormeister ?

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

I want to know your general comment about motormeister ?
Maybe I will buy a complete 2.7 engine with carbs.
This guys says that his 2.7 engines gave 210 hp ?, and you can choose your compression and cams.

Or other place to buy a good rebuild engine ?
Thanks

[emcon5]

Forwarded without comment:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52202&

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

Emcon5:
expensive the story of kurtstarnes. thanks.

Can somebody please give the e-mail or webpage of Black Forest ?

[83930]

Don't know about the black forest websight,But I can say that Motormiester's service could use some improvment.

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

I apreciate If somebody please explain me, why some people tell me that the 3.0, 3.2 engine are better because are more durables than the 2.7 ?

[kstar]

Eduardo:

The 2.7 had a magnesium crank case which, while a marvel of casting technology in its day, and much lighter than aluminum proved to reach its limits as the displacement hit the 2.7 liter mark. Magnesium has different expansion rates than the other non-magnesium components strapped to the case - like aluminum cylinders which can create head stud problems . . . like they pull out of the case!

A properly rebuilt 2.7 by true 2.7 experts will yield a powerful, extremely fun lightweight motor which is the epitome of the "early car" experience! - and most if not all of the problems of the 2.7s can be remedied by a reputable mechanic using the proper parts.

The U.S. 2.7 911s, especially the years '75, '76 and '77 and most especially the California models of '76 and '77 (which were laden with smog reducing equipment) created very high temperatures that wreaked havoc on many vital internal components. Also, in many instances, the cases from California have out of spec line bores.

While the 2.7 receives much criticism, it was also the motor within one of the (argueably) greatest 911 ever: the Carrera RS.

After the 2.7, '78 brought the 930 based aluminum crank case for the 3.0 SC which history has proven to be an extremely reliable motor as well as a great platform for hot rod motors (and a world domination plot! . Aluminum is heavier, but I think many folks would say that the extra weight is worth the durability, and at 3.0 liters of displacement Porsche seems to have not had many options . . .

The 2.7 enjoys an ironic "presence". Some look at this motor with disdain, while many times the same folks will praise the 911RS as the greatest Porsche of all time!

That's a glimpse of one guy's view of the 2.7 vs 3.x. Like all 911 motors, if they are rebuilt correctly, they can all be powerful and reliable beasts!

Best to you,

Kurt

[CamB]

Hmmm, I have already written most of this and have now seen that Kurt has also replied saying much of the same thing. I will leave what I have written...

In summary, the 2.7 has a magnesium case which is at the thermal limit in terms of horsepower/heat created. They therefore have a tendancy to pull headstuds (as the steel headstuds expanded at a different rate to the mag case) and/or warp, as magnesium is soft (as metals go). This requires a full rebuild with a number of special machining operations required (timecerting the case for new headstuds, possible align bore, new headstuds??, some other stuff too).

3.0 and newer cases (and early 2.0 cases) were aluminium, which is stronger than magnesium. Also, they are less succeptible to valve guide wear (as they run cooler).

Further compounding the problem is that 75-77 2.7s had thermal reactors as emissions equipment when new (in California - thanks Kurt), which raised engine temperatures significantly. Many 2.7s did not have an external oil cooler either. They ran way too hot for the magnesium to handle.

Other points to note are:

1. Properly rebuilt 2.7s with the emissions equipment removed seem to be reliable.
2. The problem seems mostly confined to CIS (electronic injection) equipped cars. MFI and carb equipped cars seem to be fine (eg '73/'74 2.7 MFI and all 2.0-2.4l mag cased engines). This is because they run richer and therefore cooler.
3. Some 3.2s have had premature valve guide wear problems
4. 3.0s often break head studs due to the material of those headstuds (dilivar (sp?), which has a similar thermal expansion rate to magnesium and aluminium) being succeptable to corrosion. This appears to have been a decision made by the Porsche factory to undermine Leland Pate's SC World Domination Plot, channeling funds for the WDP into essential repairs. It shows typical German planning and forsight that this choice was made when Leland was a twinkle in his old man's eye (actually he was probably a baby).

I assume you are looking at the engine to transplant into either one of the 914s or the 550 replica - either way, cool projects!

Choosing between a 2.7 and a 3.0 is tricky. There are advantages to both, including weight differential, power output and power delivery characteristics). I would not be interested in a 2.7 unless it was proven to me that it was recently and professionally rebuilt. You should form your own opinion as to whether Motormeister offers this. I would be more comfortable buying a secondhand 3.0 (unrebuilt).

I agree with Kurt that a properly rebuilt 2.7RS replica (S cams, MFI or carbs) would be even better - but once again (mindful of Kurt's experience) - make sure it is done "right".

Cam

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

Kurt and CAM:
Thanks for your know how, very useful info, I will go for the 3.0.
Originally wanted to save money with the 2.7 because the 3.0 need special parts for the 901, but with your info, the parts worth the money.

Kurt: Please tell me the e-mail of Blackforest, or other place Where I can buy a good motor.

Cam: Is for a 914.


If somebody knows where I can buy a good 3.0 or 3.2 motor, I will be apreciate, the problem is that I want carbs, no CIS, no motronic, maybe the MI but no, Carbs !.

[kstar]

Hey, I finally beat someone to the draw! I think my last three posts here were almost duplicates of someone else who was quicker with his mouse finger!

I think Cameron's post adds some important points and considerations.

Eduardo:

You can spend alot of money rebuilding a 2.7 and create a wonderful motor that is perfect for the early lightweight cars . . .

Or you can build a 3.0 into a short stroke, carbed 3.2 with an "S" type cam that will sound and rev like an early motor and most likely make more power . . . but will weigh more than a mag cased motor.

Or you can drop a 3.6 motor with EFI, as built in Stuttgart, for lots of torque and horsepower and the potential for plenty more of both!

It all depends on what you want for your specific application and how much you want to spend. The most important issue above all others, IMO, is who builds the motor.

Good Luck!

Kurt

P.S.: Try some searches for "2.7 rebuild" "3.2 short stroke" "3.6 transplant" "3.6 conversion" "3.4" for a host of great threads that will help you with your research. The archives here are most remarkable!

[kstar]

Eduardo:

You may visit the Black Forest website here:
http://www.sandiegomotorsports.com

You should also check out Rennsport Systems here:
http://www.rennsportsystems.com/~porsche/1-c.html

And, you should do a search for Mr. John Walker who posts here at Pelican often. He is extremely helpful here and has a great reputation among Pelicanites as a superb builder. I have seen many a thread were he has "rescued" a fellow Pelicanite!

And of course there is Andial:
http://andial.com/

And Otto's:
http://ottosvenice.com/

I can't imagine you having any problems with any of the above - these guys are the best, and there are many other great shops that others would highly recommend.

Good Luck!

Kurt

[Bobboloo]

Another alternative is to get a 2.4T MFI motor and bore the cylinders out to 86mm yeilding something south of 2.5 L add some JE 86mm pistons 9.5:1 and have a peppy reliable motor. The 2.4T MFI motors run cool so to speak and have iron cylinders so the thermal expansion rate problem should not be near as much of an issue. The iron cylinders will of course undo what magnesium did in the weight reduction department but only by about 15 to 20 lbs. (just guessing).

Bobby

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

Mr. Kurt:

Thanks for the urls.

I already contact Otto, but is very expensive, I don´t know the motor but I ask for all the necesary kit to install on a 914, and the total was monstrous.

Yes, I already consider a motronic 3.6 but I want carbs, yes the FI is better ( I´m a fanatic of the FI and I hate carbs specially six ). But the looks and the sound is great and Is not a daily driver car.

Bobbolo:

Yes, I can be happy with a MFI 2.4 s stock motor.
The problem is that I live out of the civilization, my father say that we live in Africa Guerrero México. we need to make all the Porsche mechanic work because even in the capital do not exist qualified mechanics to works in this old cars. Even can´t with my L98 !
And I read a lot of post that the MFI is not cheap and easy to tune when you tune the engine.
But If you know a complete good runnind 2.4 s engine at good price I will want.

Thanks

[CamB]

I understand the extra requirements to mate it up to the 901 gearbox are not major, but that first gear is weak, so no drag racing starts!

We are starting to spend an awful lot of your money here now, so in an attempt to keep it real, in approximate order of cost:

1. 2.7 with satisfactory rebuilt (and CIS)
2. 3.0 unrebuilt
3. 3.2 unrebuilt
4. 2.7 rebuilt reputably with carbs, S cams (2.7RS replica engine)
5. 3.0 rebuilt reputably to 3.0 or 3.2 with higher compression, revvy cams (eg S cams or GE60), etc
6. Buy 2.7 and build up to #4 (at least you know it is good)
7. Buy 3.0 and build up to #5

I am not too good on US prices, but would guess (totally depends on condition, milage and what is included too):

1. $2000-3000
2. $3500+
3. $4000+
4. $5000-8000 or so, if you can find one (depends on specs)
5. $6000+ (no limit!)
6. $8k+ probably (if a shop puts it together)
7. $8k+

Probably better if someone else gives you a good steer - depends a lot on condition etc and labour rates.

Also see: http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9694 for a good discussion of the larger engine options...

I mean, how much do you want to spend and what is the car to be used for?

Cam

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

Cam:

Thanks, I want to spend the less posible !, I saw in the rennlist some 3.6 complete at 6000 range. This is the most that I want to spend in the engine.
Motormeister is 8000 range with a complete rebuilded 2.7 with webers and all the conversion parts for the 914 (oiltank,oillines,sheetmetal,etc)
I already in contact with people in pelican that sell me for less with a good running 3.0 for the same.
The car is for use at most 4 day in the month. I don´t need a hotrod or speedrecord ( I have other cars for this )but I want that moves and a true porsche engine.
In this moment I´m building a 914 928 engine.
I´m in research in this moment, yes definitively I will make this 911 engine conversion this year.
I saw a lot of 2.0, 2.4 engines in $1500, but old motor are tired and need to be rebuilded, the goes to be expensive.

Conclusion I don´t know yet what I want, only now that I want a strong motor to enjoy time in time my car.

[jabb]

What I would do is all the conversion work on the car.... get the mount installed install the oil/tank upgrade the brakes and do the wiring modifications that are needed and anything else you need to do for the conversion. In the mean time I would look for a complete core motor 2.7 or 3.0 or what ever you decide. Once you have a core motor than go through the motor and rebuild it so you know what you have and know the condition of the motor.

Buying a good running motor is always a risk even though people say its good or has been recently redone if there is no documentation to stand behind the motor you do not know the internal condition and niether do they. Having just been through the process if someone asked what I would have done different this would be it. Because as of now I am currently rebuilding my motor that was suppose to have been a good running motor which it was when a leak down was done..... But this did not account for bad valve guides or scored pistons.
I have learned a lot from the people on this list and doing my 914/6 conversion. So consider not paying this premium and get a good core motor and rebuild it yourself. That way you will know what you have......
Just my .02 pesos
Good luck

[J P Stein]

Unless you have a real urge to do this conversion (some kind of DIY nirvana, I suppose), would suggest buying a completed car.

I did a lot of wheeling and dealing in an effort to save money but
didn't cut any corners. I don't have the latest numbers at hand, but a WAG would be mid teens (k), not including the original cost of the car.....and it's still rattty lookin'.

I *might* be able to sell mine for half of what I have into it.
In comparison, Mikeyz just sold a decent 2.7L conversion for under 10K.

[jluetjen]

In round figures, how much lighter is a mag case compared to an aluminum case?

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

what about a good running rebuild 2.4 with carbs (911T) ?

[Rot 911]

Originally posted by Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn
what about a good running rebuild 2.4 with carbs (911T) ?

How about one with MFI? Check out this ebay auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=600066153

[Eduardo Castrejón Elbjorn]

Kurt V:

Thanks,

yes, what about this engine, any comments ?, what is a good price for this engine ?,
Is easy to reapir the oil leak ?. how I can know that is on good running ?
I read that is easy to convert to s ( cam, part of the pump ).