My 3.6 project just got some needed help....
 

...SmileWavy

Edit: Deleted

Good luck, maybe Jim has found some patience in his old age. He sure was a pustelescent asshat when I tried to talk with him on a 914/6 conversion. I will remember his crappy 'tude on the phone until the day I die. Hopefully he'll go first so I can piss on his grave.

+1 for Joe Bob but would probably not go so far as to piss on his grave.

What if you couldn't find a close enough tree?;)


QUOTE=Wilywilly;5557346]+1 for Joe Bob but would probably not go so far as to piss on his grave.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'll just delete the original post. I didn't realize this man was so hated, and don't know why, except for one disgruntled soul who didn't get a call back in time :rolleyes:

I think there is more people here that got his phone treatment then you think. Kevin

Mark,

Do not believe that there are that many, but those who do not like Patrick are on the list often and are very vocal.

Personally I feel exactly the same about Steve Timmins after he acted the same way to me on the phone and emails. Jim Patrick bent over backwards to help me when I really needed it, and when Timmins was too busy with his school job to assist.

Joe A

I will say I found Patrick unresponsive regarding an entire car project, which ultimately led me to TRE building the car. Patrick was a lot more convenient for me geographically, but I couldn't get over the lack of interest in a huge ticket.

Joe, you know that I know all that. The thread went off track from the very first so I saw no reason to even continue it. JP has been more than willing to talk to me, email me and has been working on solutions for as long as I've had the project in mind. The essence of my (deleted) post is what I emailed you privately yesterday.

I can't believe someone holds on to such anger over such a small thing for so long. I'd personally suggest some therapy. :rolleyes:

Yeah, Timmins is a dickface too.....maybe it's just me, I tend to bring idiots out from under cover with my specific questions...... like when I asked Jim Patrick, "HOW MUCH" and why do you use a "quick six mount on a 914/6 and why won't you warranty it when it breaks".....

I was able to deal with Timmins, bought the 3.6 from him and was happy with the motor.

He's slow, has a lousy exhaust components for an SC in CA, but he was able to do the things needed before anyone else, the motor was had for a good price. Did I mention that he tends to get pissy? Also, he was using a University of WHATEVER email addy when selling his stuff......hope he's got tenure.

BTW. dogface.....it's just an opinion. I'd probably sit down and have a beer with Jim if I ever met him face to face. I just won't do business with him or let him date my daughter. He can go for the ex-wife.......

I tend to deal with people who disclose EVERYTHING to me on a level playing field. When they lie to me, get snotty, treat me like crap or try to BS me, I get pissy and have a long memory. I don't buy or sell on eBay, I deal with people here and on the 914 boards.

If you think my posts are nasty......try PARF.

You asked for an opinion, got one, I answered your PM and you can take my advise or trash it. I don't care......Joe and I have diff opinions on PATRICK. Joe and I are friends......

My car is running and on the road.......ask Joe how his is doing and the $$ on the conversion.....%^)~

Mike,

Where do you get these silly ideas? My 911 has been on the road for years now but when I go to fly in garden spots like Nigeria or Moscow its stashed away in a nice warm and dry place.

I actually took the 911 back to Jims early this spring and had him do some things that I was not happy with when I did the 3.6 conversion. You see, I wanted to do some road trips in the car and wanted it 100% right. I ran out of time and cobbled some things together to get the car back on the road as I had lost my slot in the warehouse where we were working.

Got it back on time and no issues and its been running like a charm since then. Drove it twice yesterday. I did not drive it much during the summer as I am still not sure how I want to work out my A/C setup and when its over 110 degrees you need A/C around here.

As far as $$$, Jim is not cheap. Neither is Timmins but in the end I got cheap parts in a couple of areas that I paid full boat for and in the end had Patrick replace with factory Porsche parts. Cost me TWICE as much to do it right going with Timmins, so factor that in the next time. Jim's prices again are not cheap but its done right the first time, so for me its worth the money or I would not take the car back there again and again.

Make you a deal. How about I stop harping about Timmins and his Home Depot parts and you do the same with Patrick and his attitude with you on the phone call 8-10 years ago?

Joe A

When are we going to get together for a drink? Its past time!

Deal....

Hey Mike,

I am still running SSI's on the 3.6 but now that its getting cooler looking at options.

You still running the 993 HE's on yours? I have a set of 993's and also BB headers (with heat) that I can look at, so looking at options. Would not run the BB muffler if it was the last one on earth but there are other options there. As well I do not have to run a Cat so that opens up things there.

Your ideas?

Still have the 993 HEs. Haven't gotten around to plumbing the heat up but Ingo has on his and is very happy.

Well, I guess I couldn't kill this thread after all... JB, I had heard about the communication problems that pissed you off but not about any kind of bait and switch or 'oh by the way'.. If there was, I wanna hear about it. I told JP from the start...and we have been friendly all along, that I didn't want any big surprises and asked for a more or less itemized estimate for all we're doin'. Have not received that yet only because the exhaust layout has not been finalized between Jim and the Smog ref. That should happen this week. Once I get the proposal/estimate I may go and may not depending on a lot of things..mostly cost, of course.

My SC is, in my mind, primo for a car that old, and gets a lot of looks in town. It runs extremely well and starts in a nano second. The PO, a friend and second owner, maintained it well and so have I. I could be, and have been, very happy with it for nearly ten years during which time I have upgraded many things...I just want the power and torque of a 3.6. It's a bucket list thing for an old phart like me. What I don't want is a car that pisses me off, it finicky, costs me a lot, etc. So if I have the final talk with anyone I choose to do the conversion and it sounds to me like I won't be happy.... all bets are off.

So, please tell me if there were big surprises that JP laid on you as far as cost and add ons. ??? You're a well known and knowledgeable dude around Pelican so I do value your opinion.

Good luck, I think the best guy to talk to on value and delivery is JOEaksa (JA) when it comes to PMS.....my price was considerably less than his because I did some horse trading, and did some of my own work, and did the install. JA had his done turnkey. Make sure any warranty promises are in writing....especially any BAR passing allegations.

Good job getting the ref to deal direct with PMS. The BAR didn't used to that, but they changed the policy when the new chief came in. I had written a letter to them back in the day.... it sat for 18 months and the new guy actually responded to me.....don't know if the letter was well written or if that my job title kicked them in the butt to respond....but, they changed the way they dealt with the public after that.

Sucks doing a lot of work and having some asshat you never talked to, tell that it's no good. AGAIN, make sure you document who you talked to, dates, times, name and such. Take all your docs and phone log to the inspection.....nothing irks an Inspector/Ref more than "I talked to the is guy and he said".....whipping out the diary with names dates, phone numbers and such makes you sound creditable. Jim won't be there....you will be.

I did a few kit cars and doing so saved my bacon when I got the inspection. Never underestimate a civil servant when it comes to making you do stuff.....it doesn't cost THEM money or time.

Mike,
The Ref deal really kinda surprised me. I talked to him for nearly and hour and had to explain to him just what a 993 was and just how big the PMS shop was. I asked him to talk to Jim P. and they apparently are working something out...at least that's what the Smog guy wanted to do with Jim. If it's not really a 'deal' I'll back away until it is. I also told JP in an email yesterday (no reply) that the SSI part sounds unacceptable (too small in the outlet dept.) and I would prefer the stock 993 HE's. I know he has some and figger they'll fit fine, so I guess we'll see. Bottom line is that I want everything in writing before I go all the way to Phoenix. I can accept small changes but no big surprises. JP accepts that.

BTW, Joe and I are in touch all the time about a bunch of things. He's a good friend.

BTW, the 993 HEs are NOT a direct bolt on. They need to have the flanges rewelded to match the heads......also there are two styles. Depending on how you work the cat, you need to choose which style.

Do a search on my name and subject of "cats" and it will pull up the pics of how I did mine.

Not sure I get this but I'll do the search. If I'm using a 993 motor why would the HE's not be direct bolt on ?? Whatever, they will be cheaper and better than the SSI's

Edit: OK did the search and saw a bunch of pics. BIG pipes and looks very nice. I looked for that extreme flow cat but seems they are out of business now. I think this problem will be solved with JP and the Ref.

The 993s will bolt fine to a 993 motor. Joe Bob is talking about the earlier 3.6's (which are more common for these swaps, because of the arrival of OBD2). The nice thing about the 993 is that it has both sets of holes -- so if you're willing to move your studs (or get new ones), you can also use headers made for the 964 bolt pattern. I just switched from a 964 to a 993 and had the option to use either my old B&Bs or the 993 exchangers, like Joe Bob and Ingo.

(When did the name get changed to 'Joe Bob,' by the way? How did I miss that?)

Mike,

First off my situation was not a turnkey deal. I bought Bill Verburg's old 3.6, yanked the 3.2 out of the car and sold it. Then installed the 3.6 in a warehouse my old boss had loaned me. We got it in and everything almost done then the boss sold the warehouse and gave me a month to get everything out. Had two cars and two motyrcycles in there that needed to go together so not much time to do things right, and just had to TLAR everything to get it moved.

Had problems with the wiring on the 3.6 (it came from you know who) and finally went to Patricks and he spent an hour with me going through everything. I finally bought a harness from him and took it back to change it out. Missed one thing and it would not fire. Towed it to Patricks and they had it running in 30 minutes.

Where I did spend a pretty good amount of $$$ with Jim was when he backdated my car from an 1985 model to the 1973 RS. He grafted a complete 1972 nose on the car and frankly you cannot tell it from stock or factory. Absolutely beautiful work. That was several years ago and from then on out could drive the car anytime. Problem was I was working overseas and the car sat. This killed it as I got stuck in Nigeria for a bit and then when I returned the gas was no good and that ended any driving until the fuel system was cleaned out.

Took the car back to Patrick this spring and had him yank the engine and gearbox out. I was not happy with the sheetmetal on the engine as well as the fuel hoses. Part of the stuff was stock but old and the rest came from "you know who" that looked like they were from Home Depot. Jim yanked the old sheetmetal off and modded it to work right, and while at it pulled the fuel injectors and had them cleaned and flowed. Put it all back together with new hoses and so on so that now it looks 100% factory. Starts and runs great.

Mark,

993 HE's work fine on the engine but one side needs the flanges "flipped" and rewelded in the right direction if they are going to be used on a 964 engine. Thats unless you are running a 993 engine, which I believe you are and in that case they should be fine. I am getting ready to switch to either the B&B headers and an aftermarket exhaust or the 993 HE's that I have already. The SSI's work and sound great but are just too small on the tubing size for good power.

Joe A

Jack,
I followed that thread of yours. I'm using a 95 993 which is still OBD I. I want heat and not loud so I won't go with headers. I don't track this car...yet :) I did read his past posts where he mentioned using an "early 3.6" so figgered it out then.

Not sure when or why the name change but it was not that long ago...I think.

Hey Jack,

Which type of exhaust are you using? Any suggestions? This is for a 964 engine and I have 993's or B&B's to choose from I do want heat though as we need it driving in the mountains.

Joe A

after reading this and listening to the bad mouthing of patrick, i'll say this ..............



there is a REAL VALID reason why patrick cannot quote a firm price to some of you dork brains and thats because the vehicle isnt in his shop, hasnt come apart and 99.9% of the time some 1/2azzd shade tree wrench or some total rip off artist has worked on it prior or a cheapskate owner who needs a crowbar for his wallet.


i have sat in jims office more times than i can count over the YEARS listening to some of these phone conversations and about falling out of my chair in hysterics from some of the STOO-PID OFF THE WALL MORONIC statements and questions. but the one thing jim has imbedded in his brain, is a "ANTI MILKING FEATURE" that instantaneously detects somebody trying to MILK him for info so they can do it themselves or have their lokal wrench do it.


hes in this to make money pure and simple. i dont do nothing for free. call it a character flaw. its called a bizzness.


now the wonder of getting older is ya spend all yer life trying to figure out where NOT to take your stuff to get worked on. and when ya finally find NIRVANA as far as the work being done in a timely professional manner it may as well be a multi orgazm.


ask me how i know. i love it when i bought my car from a sawed off POS RIP OFF ARTIST when asked directly by me if the car has had the valve guides replaced as he had maintained car since its local purchase and he replied "yes the valve guides were replaced." and i quote that verbatum as i dont FERGIT NOTHING EITHER!


or when the same POS sawed off azzhole is directed by myself to do "A COMPLETE BRAKE JOB" as i am taking it to the track, and guess what we find???????????


1) e-brake shoes have NO brake lining left!

2) calipers toast

3) brake cylinders toast

4) fluid dirty as it had never been replaced

5) pads 1/2 worn


and i PAY THRU THE NOSE FOR A COMPLETE BRAKEJOB! still have the invoice.



all documented and photographed for posterity by patrick.



and to top that off a multitude of other vehicles of my boss' that were so 1/2 azzed that some did not make it back to hanger and had to be towed, work that was just specd to repair was not bolted into place, not road checked and just general total mickey feeking mouse repair/ripoff work. since we wont mention names lets just suffice it to say he has more civil lawsuits found against him than believable, and a number of real questionable civil judgements found against him.



yeah talk about a breath of fresh air dealing with patricks over the years after dealing with a total CROOK!



my life has turned 180 around dealing with patricks and i dont have to worry about going to prison for MURR-DURR 1!


i honestly would not take any of my german vehicles or my boss's vehicles ANYWHERE ELSE! WHY? because its DONE RIGHT THE 1st TIME!


i also worked for johnson bozzani porsche when i was younger, so i know enough about them to be real dangerous when it comes to 1/2azzed work performed on them.

I bought a used set of 993 heat exchangers from Jim along with some other parts. I had the older set of 993 heat exchangers but also wanted an M&K muffler to fit - Ben's jig works only with the Bischoff style. My plan is to run heat through factory heat exchangers.

Jim has a real elegant solution, which I bought.

http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/1673/

In theory it looks great. But here's the problem:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WICCR-SC8nk/TI...2010.20.05.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WICCR-SC8nk/TI...2010.19.51.jpg

Anyone notice a problem? I sent Jim an email asking if this is by design and received no reply. I suppose a follow up phone call is necessary. There's not much clearance to run hoses.

Odd Job:

Just so you know, I didn't ask JP for a 'firm' price. I asked him for a reasonable estimate given that he has not seen my car yet. I just need to know what I'm in for if there are no hidden faults in my car. I think that 's reasonable and so does Jim...

Josh,

Give Jim a call. I have the same part on my engine and it works fine but then my manifold is not the same. Clearance is tight but it works fine.

He at times gets bogged down with emails but everytime I call he will make the time to help, especially for a customer in need. Let him know and sure he will take care of it.

Joe A

alot of people are very surprised at what he finds when everything is layed out and apart.


alot of people havent a clue what a porsche costs to maintain.



alot of people think they can do it themselves. and when they totally screw it up, then go to jim to fix it and they are insulted by their stoopidity and then the cost of that repair by jim.


alot of people THINK they can drive a racecar. and after a recent build go out to the track and flog the hell out of it and then get pissy when something breaks. have seen this more times than i can count. since i deal with geiserbros.com who build 1/2 mil to 3/4 million dollar trophy trucks for offroad racing the same thing happens. once the build is completed................well racing is racing and VIERD POO HAPPENS that is never covered by any expressed implied warranty.


you can tell alot about a person by how clean their shop is. you can tell alot about a person by how they conduct their life. you can tell alot about a person by how well kept their home is. when you see jims shop you can eat off the toilet its so spotless. jim runs a tight bizzness period.


im talking him up because he saved our azz quite a few times when i was ready to slit my wrists from prior 1/2azzed work performed.



and the fact my lil POS PCA/SCCA showroom stocker is just flat out more fun than a barrel of monkees to drive now and the maint. angle has gone to almost ZERO aside from oil changes/valves adj blah blahs.



you havent lived until you have broken down w/your p-car on the side of the road because of some 1/2azzed wrench. nothing better than a tow truck that cant get your car on his bed because your car is lowered and your a 100 miles from home.


i am so confident in my p-car after extensive work performed by patricks i have driven my car over to fontucky PCA ZONE 8 SPEEDFEST and run time trials NOT ONCE BUT TWICE NOW and NEVER HAD ONE SINGLE PROBLEM! now how many people drive their p-car from phx to calif and spend 3 days pounding the living hell out of the car at mega warp speed, and then drive it back home????????????


i'm too damn old to dick around with this or anything for that matter. when the mood strikes i want to go and have fun period. by no means am i rich, did i spend alot of money. you bet yer azz i did, to make it right. do i regret it? hell NO!


at one point of owning my car i seriously considered dumping it for a loss due to the 1/2azzed work on it. now i wouldnt sell it to save my soul.


since we broke the FUN BARRIER at INDEMOTORSPORTS.com down in wilcox ,az. road racing with some new BFG R-1 tires i got from jim, thats pretty much the only place it goes now with the exception of a few freeway runs here and there to burn up some fuel and charge the batteries.



theres a hell of a difference btwn someone that works on them day and night 24/7/365 with a complete paint shop/machine shop behind him and a bunch of redneck morons drinking beer late at night with the damn thing suspended on some monkey feeked sears jack stands wondering how the hell the kanuten valve interfaces with the muffler bearings.



our next stunt coming up is TERRORIZING the populace with my POS showroom stocker and my buddies soon to be up and running 1970 Z-28 ground up restored road racer down at INDE MOTORSPORTS! lets just say this after hearing this damn firebreather ROAR.......................I'LL LET HIM START 1ST so he doesnt EAT ME ALIVE! the tires and some machine work will be performed by patricks also on this Z-28. this is known as.............."friends dont let friends drive POS cars on the track."! theres ONLY 1 way to do it and thats the "RIGHT WAY!"



or YOU will have NO FUN and LIFE will be HORRIBLE!


and your dog will pee on your cobwebbed FUCHS!


and your wife will leave you for guys like us whose cars go roundy roundy all the time with minimal maintenance.



its your choice.

hmm I tried just to buy parts, didnt wanna send a car new exactly the part I needed, etc etc etc, who ever i was talking to on the phone was the rudess sob i have ever talked to period, to the point that just be for i gave my credit number i said fuch this ill go else were. The same thing happened to me a year earlier. Its been several years and maybe they have changed, hopefully. But man, I can not ever remember being spoke to that badly ever in my life, wtf, I am glad he talks to you guys like a real person. I know of several people that went through the exact same thing as i did... Would love to have some of his parts, but his shiz is not gold and refuse to ever be talked to ever again like that by any body, Kevin


i know you guys will find a way to twist it that it was my fault, but it wasnt all i wanted was a part, and asked the same questions i would ask at autozone. And I had educated my self on the part before i called.

i truely hope he has changed the way he treats people, as he does have some nice parts

Word....I......ummmm, I made a deal with Joe A to not trash heem no mo.....so move along....

I don't have any reason to disbelieve all this but can only say it's been the exact opposite for me :confused: Always polite and helpful...

Drdogface, I am sorry that i came off a little gruff. I truely hope that things have changed, we need great products in our p car world, . I hope ever thing goes great for you, Kevin

Kevin,
No apology necessary. You surely are not the only one with your story. I just dunno why it was that way. Who knows what people he may have had working there back then or if someone was having problems outside of work that affected mood...or ..well, you get my drift. Thanks for the good wishes too ;)

After doing a bunch of reading, I ended up placing an order with PMS for most of my conversion parts, I even got a call from them asking if I had any questions after I received my order. I was very impressed. I'm in the VW resotration parts biz, so I know what customer service is, and I also know 1 bad employee can ruin a buisnesses rep really quickly! Heck even our owner has screwed things up big time, that we are left to damage control!

hey im not in bed with him. i just call them the way i see them. if its great its GREAT! if its crap ITS TOTAL CRAP and i aint afeared of no one to tell it to their face.


thats the wonder of being 6ft 3-215# and OLD! cuz ya just dont care anymore and ya can, cuz ya realize ya dont give a damn what anyone thinks or says about you.


all ya care about is the damn thing running right for the short amount of time ya use it and enjoy it.



heres what i have seen time and time again. the motor has to come out for some problem. while yer in der the clutch/TO bearing is toast. customers dont realize that just the engine DOESNT COME OUT ALONE! why? pulling tranny and engine just makes sense. then customer has added expense. and as things come apart more wear and tear parts are found and more added expense. which customers sphincter has hissy fits over.


kind of like adjusting only (1) valve. WHY?


remember none of these cars are NEW. and its real damn questionable as to their wrenching heritage in their prior life. so ya get a wild azz hair up yer keester to slap a 3.6 in der and wonder why all the myriad of parts that you get billed for to make it right suddenly appear. its because a 3.6 is NOT kind to old worn out POS parts. and then patrick gets blamed for the freeking windshield wiper motor suddenly not working or some other such poo.



i watched this one clown and i wont name the name or type of car go thru there awhile back. he wanted stoopid horsepower and he wanted it perfect. he couldnt drive a baby carriage let alone this freeking insane pony power car. it was all about the "coolness" factor. "hey look at me i got a gazzillion hp and im cool."


well anyway i watched jim bend bass ackwards for this guy trying to make it right. and nothing jim did pleased him. the problem was this guy was CHEAP. he was an IDIOT. and he he knew NOTHING about the car or build except for what he read in a 6th grade HOT VWS magazine. and the car was a total WRECK when he brought it to jim.


now this was kind of like raising the GENERAL BELGRANO from the deep after being sunk by the british during the falklands war.


needless to say the last i heard he wrecked it and that was that.



he EARNED the "nickname" ....................."MAN-GINA" .



the only stoopid question asked is the stoopid question you ask of him and he answers with the CORRECT answer and then ya go and tell him how to do it yer way because some idiot did it that way despite having NO actual 1 st hand knowledge of the procedure and hes just talking out his azz. if ya wanna get off to a real poopy start with yer conversation................tell him how to do it.



if ya want it done and ya want it done UBER CORRECT...............then quit the B.S. phonecalls, drop the car off on his driveway and STEP AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE and SHUT THE HELL UP and watch how his lil elves perform wonders on yer tired dilapidated POS seemingly overnite...............and suddenly YOU HAVE DER WUNDER CAR!

I have to say that it was fun giving the above poster a ride to PMS that day. He drove this highly modified Ghia there and parked it among all the really nice 911's and better then handed the keys to Jim and said "fix it!" Jim looked at me with this "what have I gotten myself into" look...

Not only did it look out of place it was a bit sad. Couple of days later took him back and I had to get him to slow down so I could keep up in the truck on the highway!

after each and every track 3 day fiesta, and I walk away in ONE PIECE with my car INTACT or when i drive off into the sunset with my honey for a few days of R&R, is ALL THE COOLNESS FACTOR I WILL EVER NEED!



and i run the PISS OUT OF MINE RIGHT TO REDLINE EVERY SHIFT when i can at the track.



and that my friends is a WARM FUZZY!



which ghia joe? the blue one or the green one? i ferget its TOO MANY VEHICLES AGO!



the 3 seater FAV(look it up) chenowth that patrick built the zoomy motor for is done. just got it back from R&O at geiser brothers. geiser broke in the motor with his lil kids strapped in the harnesses around his place in dezert hills. it is one bad azz lil baja pre-runner. disc brakes,bilsteins,GPS,parker pumper, power steering, PTT radio btwn all (3) seats etc.

...and just like that, I emailed again Jim today and received a picture from him showing how it should fit. The parts look a little different, but with a slight adjustment mine now fits. It touches the intake on mine whereas his pic showed a bit more room. I'm happy now though. Heat, here I come!

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WICCR-SC8nk/TJ...2020.10.37.jpg

FWIW, I've also dealt with Timmins and had no issues to date (motor isn't running yet as the car isn't ready).

Sweet...