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1970 (911/01) transmission refurb issues

As I near the end of my engine rebuild (Caterino's 1970 engine rebuild), as part of my 2.5 year restoration (Restoring a 1970 911T), I'm finally having a look at my transmission. I admit I've been in denial that it might need significant work also, but now I fear it does.

I have one pressing issue with which I could use some more immediate help. The pressure plate is stuck on the transmission, and I can't figure out how to remove it. I've read a number of threads on this odd transmission (with the 'pull-type' clutch), and I thought I had the answer, that the throw-out bearing needed to be rotated to free it and the pressure plate from the clutch fork. But it will only rotate a few degrees, and not enough to clear the arms of the fork (even under extreme persuasion). The key problem seems to be that the clutch fork is completely frozen. Even with a pair of vise-grips I can't move it, and it may have to move to release the throw-out bearing 'ears'. Can anyone provide any insight into getting this apart?

The second question is one I fear I know the answer to. I was able to break the trans drain plug free (after making sure the fill plug could also be opened), and found an awful lot of debris on the plug magnet. Any suggestions as to what I would find if I were to tear this open? How serious might the problems inside be?



I hate to think I now have a complete transmission rebuild in front of me, but it would probably be better to do it now than later. I look forward to any comments.

Thanks,
Mike

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Old 10-24-2010, 05:36 PM
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HI Mike
cut a small bit of wood or jam something in between the release fork and the clutch cable casting near the bell-housing to stop the arm moving, then push the pressure plate into the bell-housing, now with a screwdriver turn the release bearing through one of the 2 holes in the back of the bell-housing to release it, basicly you need to hold the release fork and push the pressure plate against the spring to release the fork from the locating slots/flats in the release bearing, as for the bits on the drain plug they could be from the bearings in the bearing plate, rev' gear, diff bearings, pinion if the box has been in bits and the wrong gaskets fitted, remove both out put shafts and the side plate to inspect the CWP and the diff bearings, if OK then the rest of the box will need to be looked at, do a search on the 901/911 box re-build for info from Grady and the other gearbox experts you have over there, just be careful to check the size/thickness of the gaskets and shims and there position and hope the box has not been apart.

regards mike
Old 10-24-2010, 11:50 PM
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That is definitely good advice to look in the diff housing area first to see if there are issues in there BEFORE pulling the front cover off and disturbing the gearbox section of the transaxle.

Something must be preloaded in there. Can you spin the pressure plate?

And... how on earth did you get the tranny and engine separated from each other in this condition?
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Last edited by R_Builder; 10-25-2010 at 05:26 AM.. Reason: reworded question
Old 10-25-2010, 05:25 AM
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Thanks for the advice guys. I'll take a look inside the differential first and see what I can see. As for the pressure plate, I'll play with it some more. Everything is pretty well locked up. The clutch fork doesn't move in any direction, and the pressure plate itself turns barely, and only with extreme difficulty (tapping flanges with a hammer). The T-O bearing will turn a little when I tap the ears with a drift through the back holes, but doesn't want to move on the shaft at all. It seems like something's frozen to the guide tube. On the bright side, the input and output shafts all turn smoothly.

This pressure plate situation has puzzled others. When I had Competition Engineering resurface my flywheel, Walt asked where my pressure plate was. When I responded that it was still stuck to the transmission, he scratched his head for a second and asked how that was possible. This is all new to me, and I bought this car in pieces, so am not sure how it got this way, and didn't know it was even unusual at first.

The sun's just coming up, so I'm going to go out and see what I can do.

Mike
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Old 10-25-2010, 05:48 AM
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Mike,

Let me correct Pelican MBEngineering Mike (first & only time ever), there isn’t any ‘over there’ or ‘over here’ any more. Pelican Forum makes everywhere ‘here’. The 911/01 could be rebuilt in Antarctica (although UPS/FedEx might be a bit slow).


MBE Mike is spot on getting your clutch off. It is simply rotating the TO bearing so the clutch arm comes off the ‘TO bearing ‘ears’.
There are several Pelican threads about this.

If all else fails, there are two other remedies: taking the TO bearing off the pressure plate and unscrewing the clutch fork pivot. Fear not.



Rubbing my crystal ball, you will find something to repair in the transmission.

I’ll speculate the input shaft 4-point ball bearing at the intermediate plate is in the process of failing. Of course it could be the pinion. Whatever, look at it as an opportunity to rebuild your transmission back to close to new. Done right, it will outlive all of us.

Given your new 911E cams, you may consider finding a donor 901 transmission and changing from A-GA-O-V-ZA ratios to the shorter A-F-M-S-X. Work the numbers and consider your use when making this decision.


Judging by your nice approach to your DIY engine rebuild, I assume you are OK making a few transmission tools. Porsche calls these “of local manufacture”.

Since you in the middle of SoCal land, finding a salvage 914 transmission should be easy. You can drill and saw an opening in the side to be able to adjust your shift forks. This is a better alternative to the P-260 Factory tool.

Next is to find a junk first gear I (fixed) to make a P-256 to hold the input shaft.

You can use the old input shaft as a clutch disc aligning tool.

Your old clutch disc makes a P-37 (useful but not necessary).

Using a junk 1-R sliding sleeve, grind off about five reverse-gear teeth. This to allow you to lock the transmission in 1st gear and 2nd gear simultaneously and provide clearance to get a socket on the input shaft castle nut.

Find a used 32 mm deep socket. Have someone with a lathe cut it in half – part with the ½” drive and part with the 32 mm hex. Using a pipe piece, weld the three pieces together to make a really deep socket. Presto: P-252.

You will need a standard very deep 30 mm socket to clear the speedometer drive on the pinion bolt. P-251.

Unless you need to reset the ring and pinion (R&P) gears (Crown Wheel and Pinion – CWP for my UK friend), you do not need any tools more than normal mechanic’s tools.

If you need the R&P set, we will find a local Pelican with the tools.


MBE Mike is correct about being careful to measure (and save pieces) of the gasket(s) between the intermediate plate and the main casting. They are shim gaskets that are the final setting of the pinion position. Unless the pinion is reset, we will be using new shim gaskets of the same thickness.


I’ll dig out a 911/01 and go through it in parallel with you.

This is easy DIY and needs to be well documented.

The most difficult part involves decisions of what to keep and what to replace.

Best,
Grady
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Last edited by Grady Clay; 10-25-2010 at 06:21 AM..
Old 10-25-2010, 06:15 AM
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From the looks of it, it had to have sheared all of the bolts holding the PP to the Flywheel, but logically, that is not possible. I have attached the name of the thread that I started and it explains how to remove the engine from the trans when removing the trans from the engine in a normal situation. Just do a search and read the thread. Good luck. Steve
2.2 liter engine and trans that will not separate.

Grady, never considered removing the PP through the starter cover.


2.2 liter engine and trans that will not separate
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Last edited by steve911T; 10-25-2010 at 08:18 AM.. Reason: add link
Old 10-25-2010, 06:20 AM
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Steve,

Please edit above and provide a link to your thread.

The PO got the clutch off by unscrewing the clutch bolts through the starter opening and rotating the engine.

Best,
Grady
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Old 10-25-2010, 06:26 AM
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There is a large metal ring that holds the throwout bearing to the center of the pressure plate. Looks like you can access it as I can see it in the picture. If you pry that out, it might allow you to pull the pressure plate off---
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Old 10-25-2010, 06:51 AM
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Wonderful feedback and suggestions everyone. I need to go to my real job, but will dig in further later. Grady, I'm nervous about the complete rebuild you suggest, as much as anything for the probably serious delay to my overall project. But I will give it serious thought.

Cheers,
Mike
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Old 10-25-2010, 07:19 AM
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Mike,

If I can completely re-gear my 911/01 between practice sessions (40 minutes including R&R), I suspect you can rebuild yours in a week. The time will be getting the necessary parts and not spending much money.

Making the few tools will let you be ‘resident 911/01 expert’ forever.

Yes, you can ship off your transmission to one of many experts and have very professional work done.

DIY can be the same level as your engine for much less cost, only buying necessary parts.

DIY also lets you ‘pause’ to find bargains and garner information. The transmission can easily paralell the engine and chassis. As I noted above, “The most difficult part involves decisions of what to keep and what to replace.


Best,
Grady
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Old 10-25-2010, 08:21 AM
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HI Grady

"Let me correct Pelican MBEngineering Mike (first & only time ever), there isn’t any ‘over there’ or ‘over here’ any more. Pelican Forum makes everywhere ‘here’. The 911/01 could be rebuilt in Antarctica (although UPS/FedEx might be a bit slow)."

I was only printing hypothetically about the distance from where I am, as You are at a lot closer to the source of the question, and as for the amount of work Mike has achieved on his car, a gearbox will not slow the job up at all with the info and answers on the W.W.Pelican site that he will need to sort it out.

Mike just ask the question and some one will inform you, as you have just found out.

regards mike
Old 10-25-2010, 10:23 AM
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Grady - re DIY abilities: what about the fancy & spendy jig to set the diff.?
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:13 AM
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Wow - it's like having devils over one shoulder and an angel over the other!

The idea of having a 'like new' transmission to complement all my other work is certainly seductive. I'm not convinced that it will go as smoothly as Grady would have me believe, even if I can put the proper toolkit together. And as Grady perceives I'm definitely concerned about cost. Once confronted with worn gears and such my conscience will probably demand I replace. Yet denial costs next to nothing (I know, I know, in the short run...)

Lots of reading to do before I dive in, and I'll probably finish my engine before making this a priority.

I will say that this morning I carefully combed through my gearbox sludge, and although there was a lot of it, it was all very fine, nothing chunky. I also pulled the differential and found everything inside there to look very nice. Having just read about it over lunch, it also looks like I may have the fix for the 'simplified differential' already done. Well, at least my output flange bolts totally lack the 'nipples', and they didn't appear to be broken off.

Perhaps I'll start gathering tool fodder, and if I can get most of that together will think more favorably about the total rebuild. I just know that essentially nothing in this project has been as straightforward as it first appeared. Then again, every problem has yielded eventually.

Ahh, this will be done someday...

Mike
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:27 PM
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Mike,

Since you inspected the pinion gear and didn’t find any problem, I suspect the ‘fuzz’ is from one of the 4-point intermediate plate bearings.
These bearings commonly fail in this manner.
These are bearings that I regularly replace on ‘general principals’ just for this reason.

I’m predicting that the ‘fuzz’ is not long-term wear as the lubricant is relatively clean.

Worn gears (other than R&P) are not usually an issue.

Good that it has the ‘simplified differential’ update.
If needed, those parts could have come from the donor 914 transmission.
What is your transmission number?





Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb View Post
Grady - re DIY abilities: what about the fancy & spendy jig to set the diff.?
Randy, From post #5 above:
If you need the R&P set, we will find a local Pelican with the tools.

Best,
Grady
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:01 PM
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My transmission number, aside from 911/01(as stamped underneath) is 7107074.

For the moment I'm still leaning toward opening, inspecting, cleaning everything up the best I can, and replacing the seals. So is there anything that I need to be careful about when opening up the front cover? The workshop manual notes that the reverse gear might fall out. The shim I need to look out for is behind the intermediate plate, right? Even going that far looks a little tricky (like shifting the transmission into 5th gear with a screwdriver through the 'rear access hole' - I have no idea how to do that!) That brings up another more basic question though: should I be able to move the shift rod at all? It seems like it should be shiftable, but the rod has very little play by hand. (I haven't tried all that hard.)

I am quite curious about the gearing. I was researching that a little last night. The stock gearing would probably be fine. I see that if I were a serious autocrosser I would probably want shorter gearing, but my main use is almost certainly going to be more casual driving. In any case it would be very nice to know what was in there for sure. Can markings on the gears be seen without dismembering the shafts? I guess I can always count teeth.

All for now,
Mike
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Old 10-26-2010, 06:10 AM
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Pressure plate: off!

Finally tonight the pressure plate yielded to my efforts. R Builder and I had a theory going that the throw-out bearing had somehow become one with the guide tube, and its refusal to move was holding everything in place. That doesn't seem to be the case, although I must admit I'm no more enlightened now than before. Eventually I saw that I could reach the clutch fork pivot bolt from the bottom of the case, and turning that 2 degrees at a time, finally got some play in the clutch fork. Somehow this allowed everything to become free. Then I was able to turn the throw-out bearing as prescribed, and pull it and the pressure plate off the guide tube. The main problem seemed to be that the clutch fork was unable to move. Whether that was because the pressure plate was jammed too far back, or for some other reason, I'm still not sure. Quite puzzling. Anyway, I'm glad to have it out. Time for some serious cleaning!



I can now get a little more serious with inspecting everything else. Here's a couple shots of the differential and input & pinion shafts. Everything my untrained eye can see looks great, if dirty. No play in the shafts. The bearings seem tight. Everything spins smoothly.




I remain optimistic about resealing and running it.

Mike
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:05 PM
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Mike,

Good, you have the ‘simplified differential’ update (green circle).





Be sure to inspect both sides of all seven pinion teeth.
While the ring gear and differential are out, clean and inspect the teeth also.

You should be able to shift the transmission.
Put the shift coupling on the shift rod as a ‘handle’.
You should be able to engage all six gears.
You may find it necessary to be turning the input shaft slightly.

Fear not about taking the nose piece off and removing the gear cluster for inspection.
The reverse gear idler pieces are easy.
Shifting into 5th is easy.
Yes, if you can’t see the gear ratio designation, count teeth.

Get a set of gaskets and seals.
Reassembly is easy.
We can help with all this.

Here are the gears that you should find: A-GA-O-V-ZA:


© 1969 Dr. ing. h.c.F. Porsche K.G.



Here are the earlier common ratios A-F-M-S-X:


© 1967 Dr. ing. h.c.F. Porsche K.G.

Best,
Grady
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:01 AM
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Make sure you replace the clutch release arm "ball pivot". They snap off on a regular basis rendering the car undrivable.
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:46 AM
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Hey transmission fans,

With the engine build behind me, I can get back to inspecting this transmission.

Today I spent a little time cleaning up the trans case, mainly to ensure no junk was going to fall in when I opened it up. Cleaned out the bell housing some, and began pulling old seals, just the differential cover o-ring and side axle flange seals. The new replacements are here on the bench.

I got the front cover off, and now understand why the workshop manual says to be careful about reverse falling off. It's just retained on a shaft on the cover, then pressed against the intermediate plate. I almost lost the needle bearing between them, but caught it before it hit the floor.





Again, everything in here looks extremely grungy, but otherwise intact. There's no obvious wear on anything I can see. I will be cleaning as I go, but would like to get a little feedback on a few key questions.

1. Is it still safe to shift the gears with the front cover off? I don't want to lose any critical alignment. I tried shifting again before removing the front cover, and still wasn't able to easily. Now being able to see what's going on, maybe shifting will help diagnose any issues.

2. I need to clean whatever I can reach and/or remove. There's a caked layer of grunge on almost everything. I can remove the reverse stuff easily enough, and would probably run a lot of brake cleaner through the other gears. Is there anything that this would be bad for? The bearings, in particular, come to mind.

3. If I take the next step, removing the intermediate plate, just to inspect the remaining gears, is that going to commit me to anything beyond inspecting and putting everything back as I found it? I know this is where the 'shim' issue rears its head, so I'm ready for that. Will everything else basically hold together and be easily reinstallable into the case following some cleaning?

4. I don't see an easy way to get to the shift shaft seal. How is that replaced?

5. On the old input shaft seal, is that pushed out from inside the differential housing or from the bell housing side?

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 11-07-2010, 12:34 PM
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Good going.

The reverse idler thrust bearing race (red arrow) is stuck to the intermediate plate by the oil film.
Take it off so it doesn’t fall off on its own.





Carefully clean the first gear syncro and engagement dogs (green box).
Get it entirely free of oil (brake-clean / lacquer thinner clean).
Use your excellent photo skills and post some close-up images from several directions.
We are going to be looking at the condition of these parts.
After photographing, coat with oil again.

I have an identical transmission out so let me proceed your steps.

Best,
Grady

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Old 11-07-2010, 03:48 PM
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