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Which Flywheel & Clutch Kit?

I am collecting parts for my 3.6 conversion into a G50 Carrera and decision time is looming for flywheel, pressure plate and clutch.

The car will be a daily driver with occasional track days. Engine will have a bit extra grunt from ITBs, DC40 cams and headers.

The '92 3.6 engine (M64.02) came with the flywheel and ring gear from an M64.03 engine ('92 Carrera RS). I don't know if this is different to the standard M64.02 3.6 flywheel. Can anyone confirm?

As I see it, my options are:
1. buy clutch kit to suit the M64.03 flywheel, or
2. keep the 3.2 flywheel from the car's current motor and fit a new (upgraded?) clutch kit.

My concerns with 1. are that the clutch kit and starter ring gear from the M64.03 (RS) engine won't be compatible with the '88 G50 transmission.
Option 2 seems more simple, i.e. just swapping out the entire flywheel/clutch from the 3.2 motor onto the 3.6. If I go this way, I just need to source a G50-compatible clutch kit that will handle the extra power of the 3.6. Although I would like a lighter flywheel than the standard 3.2.

I know there's lots of info in here about 3.6 conversions, but I've struggled to put together a clear picture of the best way to handle this flywheel/clutch subject, especially if I use the 3.6 RS flywheel.

Your thoughts, suggestions or recommendations please?
I'd be interested in good condition used parts or new.
TIA
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-18-2010, 05:03 PM
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Bill,

For the 3.6 against an early G50 car, you can indeed use the 964 RS flywheel and ring gear. The setup i've seen is a bit odd in that it uses two ring gears (one to engage the starter and the other 964 part is used as a spacer), a 968 T/O bearing, a 993RS guide tube, and some washers to space things out..

I did this 3.6-into-early-G50 install with a local friend (einreb) on his '88 Carrera. Here's the clutch setup we used:

968 release bearing = 944.116.080.01

928 flywheel bolts = 928.102.151.01, quantity 9

Conversion flywheel = 964.102.239.31 = not a custom part! It's an OE application for 964 which apears to be the RS.

Flywheel pilot bearing = SKF# 181799, 6202-2RSJ I think this is a std. G50 pilot bearing?

993 RS Guide tube = 950.116.813.30 = a little bit longer than a regular 87-98 G50 guilde tube

Ring gear = 964.114.143.31

964 clutch disc = 964.116.011.61 = Sachs p/n = 1 878 000 802 (installed backwards)

LW Clutch housing/pressure plate = 964.116.028.90 = Sachs p/n = 3082 213 133

You also need the original 87-89 G50 ring gear from atop the original clutch housing, longer allen screws to mount the clutch housing onto the flywheel and 27 M8 washers (or 9 nicely machined spacers the thickness of 3 M8 washers).


The order of assembly is:

Flywheel, clutch disc installed backwards of normal, new ring gear, Pressure plate, 3 washers, old ring gear, longer bolts through all. The new ring gear is only used as a spacer and is sandwiched between the flywheel and the clutch. So I imagine a ring of the proper thickness could be substituted for the extra Porsche ring gear (which is probably not cheap....)

Pretty goofy, eh? The stuff we installed is the LW "RS" kit. Pressure plate is definitely LW. Comparatively the original G50 3.2 p-plate is like a boat anchor vs. the LW 964 RS concoction. Certainly not the only way to do it and seems sort of cobbled together. But it worked..... Let's see what other people have to share!
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Present: '86 Carrera, '79 911SC widebody conversion rolling racecar shell
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Last edited by KTL; 11-18-2010 at 07:22 PM..
Old 11-18-2010, 06:35 PM
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Your pressure plates are interchangeable .The 3.2 G50 PP is also used up to 1994 in the Turbo. Any spring centered disc of 240 mm should also work. Either turbo or 964,and 993 used a 240 disc ,not all were spring centered. Then depending on flywheel used you will need to mix parts to line up the starter and ring gear as above.The 1989 and earlier starters were different than the later because the ring gear was mounted at a different spot.
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Last edited by johnsjmc; 11-18-2010 at 07:06 PM..
Old 11-18-2010, 06:50 PM
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Kevin, thanks for the good info!!

I have an 89 Carrera, and will be doing an engine drop over the winter, mainly to fix an oil leak, but I too was wondering about renewing the clutch while I'm there. The standard stuff is easy to find, but the light weight route has alluded me so far.

Anyway, i'll be eagerly peeking in to see what other solutions Pelicans have used.

Alfonso
Old 11-18-2010, 06:52 PM
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Alfonso,

The LW setup for a 3.2 is a lot easier. You can get an aluminum alloy clutch housing from Kennedy Engineered Products. I have one of these in my '87 and the rev characteristics improved a lot with it. If I recall correctly the weight loss was 8 lbs. Clutch pedal effort is a bit harder, but not intolerable by any means.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL View Post
Bill,

For the 3.6 against an early G50 car, you can indeed use the 964 RS flywheel and ring gear. The setup i've seen is a bit odd in that it uses two ring gears (one to engage the starter and the other 964 part is used as a spacer), a 968 T/O bearing, a 993RS guide tube, and some washers to space things out..

I did this 3.6-into-early-G50 install with a local friend (einreb) on his '88 Carrera. Here's the clutch setup we used:

968 release bearing = 944.116.080.01 $153.50

928 flywheel bolts = 928.102.151.01, quantity 9 $4.00 each

Conversion flywheel = 964.102.239.31 = not a custom part! It's an OE application for 964 which apears to be the RS. Pelican has this "Flywheel - Single Mass RS Version (11.05 lbs.), 911 C2 RS (1992), 911 RS (1995-96), GT3 (2004-05)" for $586.25 Fortunately, this is the exact same part that I have

Flywheel pilot bearing = SKF# 181799, 6202-2RSJ I think this is a std. G50 pilot bearing? $6.50

993 RS Guide tube = 950.116.813.30 = a little bit longer than a regular 87-98 G50 guilde tube $76.50

Ring gear = 964.114.143.31 $148.00 Fortunately, I have one of these too.

964 clutch disc = 964.116.011.61 = Sachs p/n = 1 878 000 802 (installed backwards) $385.00 Seems high for a simple clutch disc!

LW Clutch housing/pressure plate = 964.116.028.90 = Sachs p/n = 3082 213 133 $560.00

You also need the original 87-89 G50 ring gear from atop the original clutch housing, longer allen screws to mount the clutch housing onto the flywheel and 27 M8 washers (or 9 nicely machined spacers the thickness of 3 M8 washers).


The order of assembly is:

Flywheel, clutch disc installed backwards of normal, new ring gear, Pressure plate, 3 washers, old ring gear, longer bolts through all. The new ring gear is only used as a spacer and is sandwiched between the flywheel and the clutch. So I imagine a ring of the proper thickness could be substituted for the extra Porsche ring gear (which is probably not cheap....)

Pretty goofy, eh? The stuff we installed is the LW "RS" kit. Pressure plate is definitely LW. Comparatively the original G50 3.2 p-plate is like a boat anchor vs. the LW 964 RS concoction. Certainly not the only way to do it and seems sort of cobbled together. But it worked..... Let's see what other people have to share!
Thanks for all that info Kevin. I am sure others will find it useful as well. As you say, it's just one way to skin this cat, but it looks practical for my situation.
The prices above are all Pelican's for info.
Fortunately I have $734 worth of these parts already (RS flywheel and ring gear).
I have inquired with Kennedy to see what they can offer as well.

I have plenty of time on this project, so now that I have some idea what I'm looking for, I'll keep my eyes and ears open for some good used parts or unwanted new parts before I pull the pin on retail prices.
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-18-2010, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTL View Post
Bill,

964 clutch disc = 964.116.011.61 = Sachs p/n = 1 878 000 802 (installed backwards)

The order of assembly is:
Flywheel, clutch disc installed backwards of normal, ...

Pretty goofy, eh?
If I put the clutch plate in backwards, do I get five reverse gears and one forward!
Then I'd have to flip the crown wheel to compensate

Any other solutions out there?
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-22-2010, 10:13 PM
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Seriously about the disc. It is installed backwards because they are mislabelled on some discs when used with the LWF. I have read on Rennlist it,s because the disc is also used on some BMW model with the disc the opposite way. . Newer discs are labelled correctly now? At least if they are sourced from Porsche directly. I have a new Motorsport disc on my bench with the raised side correctly marked flywheel side. I,m thinking at $385 it,s got some trick lining material like kevlar on it , but it looks like a normal disc. It has 4 blue torsion springs .The ring gear can also be installed backwards as it is notched on one side to allow the pressure plate to seat into it's inner edge. The bolts which attach the PP are also specific part numbers be careful that even though the length looks the same that the threaded portion is long enough to clamp everything together without bottoming. This combination of parts from one year and model to another should be possible but needs careful attention to details when fitting parts.
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Last edited by johnsjmc; 11-23-2010 at 07:27 AM..
Old 11-23-2010, 06:03 AM
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Still looking for solutions here.
With all the 3.6 conversions out there, someone must have some ideas about the best way to do it with a G50?
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-24-2010, 05:40 AM
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I've been doing some reading on Rennlist about this setup. It appears that the 1989 and earlier G50 flywheel is a lightweight single mass design already. One thread said the 1989 flywheel is approx same weight as the later LWF if you include the ring gear which is built in to the 89 FW and seperate on the RS LWF . Another said the biggest weight diff was in the clutch used. Another suggested that not only is the starter a different length but also the motronic sensor is mounted at a diff spot in the earlier bellhousing. Since you have both early and late flywheels and clutches I would weigh them to confirm and if close then use the 1988/9 flywheel with a new clutch. There are 2 discs available for 89 and I would use the spring centered type not the rubber one. I would guess the spring type is lighter and more reliable also
This way you can sell your extra later LWF and avoid buying an assortment of new parts other than a replacement clutch kit. If looking for a stronger pressure plate the turbo plates have higher clamp loads at the same cost as NA without getting in to Motorsport parts
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1980 911 SC 3.6 coupe sold
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:56 AM
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Bill,

I suspect "stock" G50 clutch stuff should work. The only reason I posted the fancy stuff we used is because it's a lightweight 964RS single mass sort of setup.

3.6 conversion advise needed

Note what Glickster says in the above- G50/50 clutch housing. That would be the stock '89 930 clutch. However he used a Patrick conversion flywheel. When you mate a 3.6 against a G50, you don't really need a "conversion" flywheel because the G50 was native to the 3.6, in that the bellhousing dimensions for G50s are basically the same. The conversion flywheel is the 964RS flywheel I posted above- its a Porsche part and not necessarily an exclusive custom Patrick flywheel.

Ask Chris (CBRacerX) what he ended up using on his conversion?

The one question I have about using the 87-89 flywheel is, will it mate to a 3.6 properly? Meaning, are bolt circles for the crankshafts the same and would the pilot bearing be proper? I suspect not. I know the '89 C4 used a single mass flywheel, but also keep in mind that the '89 C4 transmission is different- G64, not G50. However the parts diagrams do indicate a 950 part number for the '89 C4 clutch......
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Last edited by KTL; 11-24-2010 at 07:39 AM..
Old 11-24-2010, 07:24 AM
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A few more points to ponder ...

I can see now that there's more to this than just flywheel/clutch/pressure plate. That's probably the easiest part to sort out.
I like the idea of using the 964 RS flwheel that I already have, and using the LW pressure plate looks like a good move as well.

Where I see this coming unstuck is in the area of fork/guide tube/release bearing, and possibly starter ring gear.
Using Kevin's suggested mixture of parts may address these concerns, but I sort of hoped that a list of parts more common to either the '88 911 tranny or the '92 964 engine might work.
As John suggests, maybe the std 911 flywheel is a similar weight to the 964 RS version, so flywheel choice may be determined by other factors (such as ring gear).

From Pelican's fitment descriptions listed below for the various pressure plates, it seems like they all overlap the years '87 to '94. For example, if the first one suits the whole range, why wouldn't the last two also fit '87 to '94 even though they are identified as pre- and post-89?
Unfortunately, this also doesn't identify whether or not there may be differences in release bearings/guide tubes.
As part of this exercise, it would ne nice to see a list of differences between the various release bearings and guide tubes if anyone has the details.

I am not worried about the sensors location as I am converting to MegaSquirt engine management anyway.

Kevin, I don't believe that the flywheel/cranshaft bolt pattern changed during these years. The 964 has 9 holes at 70mm PCD.
I don't know about the pilot bearing though. IIRC, the one that came with my 964 RS flywheel is 35mm OD. I might check and post the ID and width for reference.

For reference, Pelican lists the following pressure plates:
950-116-023-03 $211 suits 911 (1987-1989) and 964 C2/C4/Turbo (1989-1994)
950-116-023-50 $576 suits 911 Carrera/Turbo (1987-1989) (G50.50)
964-116-028-90 $560 suits 964 C2/C4/Turbo (1989-1994) M64.01/03 from 92

Shipping weights are 21.2 lbs / 21.45 lbs / 9.6 lbs respectively.
The last one is the LW version used by Kevin.

This thead is boring without pictures, so here's what the 964 RS flywheel (964.102.239.31) and ring gear looks like (complete with surface rust courtesy of slack PO).
How does this compare with a '87-'89 flywheel?

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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-24-2010, 10:52 PM
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Drawing of 964 RS flywheel for reference ...
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 11-24-2010, 11:02 PM
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Patrick Motorsports sells the clutch/flywheel pkg. I installed the pkg on my car.
Old 11-25-2010, 02:39 AM
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I assume the pilot bearing must match the flywheel used since it mounts into the flywheel.
Next I would expect any pressure plate will work if it crosses any of the years you are considering. I am putting together a Sachs plate original spec for the 996TT with a disc used in the GT2 and the 964RS LW flywheel.( All new but purchased at bargain prices on Ebay) on a NA 993. The spring on the turbo clutch is stiffer (my research says about about 20%) but not nearly as much as the 999 Sachs motorsport PP. There is alot more info at Rennlist than here re 964/993
I think your best bet is the stock 89 G50 flywheel with ring gear because you then use standard 89 starter . Then you can probably use any pressure plate that fits turbo or NA. The disc I believe should be spring centered 89 style also.. The throwout bearing and sleeve will then also remain standard 89 as the stack should be standard 89 height. I see there are 2 89 flywheels turbo and NA and I assume but don't know for sure its because the turbo and NA used different injection in that year or it could be 2 different thicknesses . I believe they are all 240 mm dia .
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Last edited by johnsjmc; 11-25-2010 at 07:38 AM..
Old 11-25-2010, 06:30 AM
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Just resurrecting this thread as I am getting closer to buying parts and looking for confirmation that my intended combination of parts will work.

I am planning on using a 91-97 Sachs clutch kit KF-793-01 on my 964 RS flywheel.



I know that the p/plate - clutch - flywheel combination will work, but I am not sure what the implications are for the throw-out bearing and starter ring gear. The transmission is an '88 G50.

Does anyone have specific experience with this combination?
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 03-03-2011, 08:55 PM
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Anyone?
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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911
Old 03-04-2011, 04:58 PM
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Another thread resurrection ... the old 3.2 engine is out and sold, so now I have no excuses for not getting on with this conversion.
I kept the 3.2 G50 flywheel and clutch so I could build up my new flywheel and clutch to match positions for ring gear and release bearing.

Ring gear is no problem. Using Kevin's method in post #2, I will swap the old ring gear across to the new assembly with some 4mm thick spacers between the ring gear and pressure plate. The spacers will also give clearance to the rivet heads that can be seen below.

Where things don't look correct are with the release bearing. The underside of the release bearing lugs (where the fork pulls against) are 7mm shorter on the new assembly compared to the original 3.2 G50 assembly.

Kevin - if you are out there - did you find the same thing?
If so, I guess it wasn't a problem?

Anyone else got any suggestions here? Maybe there is another release bearing part number that is about 7mm longer?

The effect could be that I run out of travel, but I won't know until I put it all together and drive it.
One option may be to fit a 7mm spacer between the slave cylinder and bell housing to compenstae for the different position of the release bearing lugs. Anyone tried this?

EDIT: Remeasuring after I fitted the release bearing retaining circlip, the bearing was pulled down about 1.5mm so that difference between old and new clutches grew to 7mm.

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1988 Carrera - 3.6 engine (with ITBs, COPs, MS3X) and a whole set of turbo body panels waiting in the attic.
Day job ... www.sspowdercoat.com.au
Memories: '68 912, '72 911T, '80 911SC, '84 911, '85 930, '86 930, '87 911

Last edited by billjam; 03-18-2013 at 08:29 AM..
Old 03-16-2013, 10:03 PM
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Bill,

I think with the shallower/farther away release bearing ears, you would have less clutch travel, correct? Because if the ears are farther away, when you install the fork it will pivot the pushrod end of the fork closer to the slave cylinder.

Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the clutch installed. Dunno why....... All i've got are some useless flywheel pictures and a few pictures of me demonstrating how to IMPROPERLY read instructions and mix-up the arrangement of spacer ring gear & washers.






But if you have an arrangement of parts exactly as I previously described, I can tell you it works with no problems. Never had a clutch/shifting problem on the 3.6 conversion I assisted, and i'm pretty confident in saying the owner never checked the clutch travel at the pedal stop. I suspect a good test would be to adjust your clutch engagement via the method WEVO describes in their Superlite kit:

With the rear wheels in the air, engine OFF, select first gear in the transmission. Have an assistant attempt to turn the rear wheel by hand (jam one wheel if you have an open diff or Torque Biasing diff), at this point the wheels are connected to the crankshaft and this will not be possible.

As you slowly depress the clutch pedal, it might be possible to just turn
the wheel as you reach the pedal stop. If the rear wheels can not be turned freely by hand adjust the pedal stop a small amount at a time until this condition is achieved.
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Old 03-18-2013, 08:44 AM
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Resurrecting because I need help on the same issue.

Early G50 bell housing with a 964 LW flywheel looking for a starter to make it work...
Old 09-12-2018, 11:52 AM
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