Help me bring a 79 SC Targa back to life!

[PaleoMan]

I have a '79 911 Targa that was running well before its exile to the 3rd bay garage. It's probably been 5 years since it has run, but I want to get this baby back on the road! My mechanics skill are of the shade tree variety but, I'm willing to do what it takes myself if at all possible.

Is there anything I should do before trying to start it? I already charged up the battery - which was like new despite its age -- and the dash and trunk lights come on, but upon turning the ignition, the lights go out and nothing else happens.

Where do I start?

Thanks in advance.

[masterdave]

first off welcome to the forum,

I live in westchester NY and have a 78sc my self if you ever need help with any thing i would be more than happy to lend a hand.

On to the issues you may be having, first off do you hear the starter relay click when you turn the key. If not you may have a bad relay. Second, although your battery may charge up enough to turn the lights on that by no means says its capable of turning the engine over. It takes only a few amps to get all the interior lights and radio on, it takes a few hundred amps to crank an engine over. You may want to consider replacing the battery even if you are getting 12V at the terminals. Based on the fact your lights are dimming and going off i would be willing to bet this is the issue, your starter is trying to draw to much current and your battery simply cant provide it. You may also want to check you battery connectors for corrosion. When i got my car they were the first thing i replaced. They only cost a few dollars and you can get them at any local auto parts store.

I would also drain the gas tank and put a few gallons of fresh gas in.

On that same note an oil change is in order as well. I am always weary about fluids that sit for a long time. Even if you put fresh oil in before the car went away in 5 years that oil had plenty of time to sit around settle.

Along with all that check your brake fluid once its running etc. etc.

I also always check the engine bay before a first start after a long time. A good friend of mine had a car that was sitting for a while, he couldn't get it started because there was a rat that had crawled up into intake died, and was blocking all the air flow. Check for lose spark plug wires, etc. etc.

I also would consider replacing the plugs, distributor rotor and cap, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter etc. these are all small things, good weekend projects, that can make a huge difference as they tend to deteriorate over time.

The 101 projects for your 911 book they sell here is great. It has a lot of good tune up and maintenance projects. Naturally a lot of this depends on the condition the car was put away in.

Best
Dave

[ossiblue]

After sitting for five years, I'd suggest a few other steps before trying to start the engine. If it were me, I'd start by draining the fuel tank, flushing the fuel lines, installing a new fuel filter, and testing it all along with the fuel pump (oh yeah, add some fresh gasoline.) Next, change the oil and oil filter.

As far as the problem mentioned in your post, it sounds like a weak battery, regardless of how fresh it appears to be. The starting circuit draws heavy amperage and since you lose your lights when the starting circuit is engaged, the battery appears unable to handle the load because you lose your lights--they may dim, but they shouldn't go out.

Also, your starter motor may be "frozen" causing an excessive amperage draw that cannot be overcome by a five year old battery.

I'd suggest you get a known new, fully charged battery, install and check all connections, and try again. Please report your results.

[KNS]

Be thankful it didn't start the first time, you don't want that five year old rotten gas going through the engine. Follow the advice above...

[porwolf]

Welcome to the club! I also woke up my 79 Tag from a 15 year hibernation. I installed a new battery, new tires, and had all the fluids flushed. First put in 5-30W oil and ran the car for 200 miles. Then changed to 20-50, both times with new oil filters. Also changed the fuel filter in the engine compartment and the fuel filter sock in the bottom of the gas tank. Replaced the fuel pump, the old one was frozen. I found out that quite a bit of muck collected in the bottom of the squirl cage inside the gas tank. It had to be removed with a short snake used to clear sinks. Both the tank's outlet and inlets were plugged solid. Check them with blowing compressed air into the empty tank. That cleaning procedure worked for me. The car is riding like new, no problems with the fuel system! Though I had to disassemble and clean the fuel level sending unit following this forum. That one was frozen also. And since the "Techron" additive is highly recommended on this forum I now only use the Chevron gas with Techron every time. Seems to work.

Good luck!

[PaleoMan]

Wow, I never dreamed I'd get so many quality replies so fast!

My main goal so far was just to see if the engine would turn over... and that was answered -- no. I'll try a different battery, though this one was brand new right before the car was parked and there is no corrosion. There is no clicking sound, so as pointed out it is probably just too weak a battery.

The engine compartment looks pretty clear. Once I know it will turn over just for a split second, I will drain all fluids as suggested. Change all filters. Will definitely get the 101 Projects book - hope it's written for dummies!

Most time so far has been spent figuring out how to jack up the car! I see there is significant disagreement on methods -- from the engine vs the jack points. I ended up sticking a little "L" shaped insert into my jack point receiver, chocking front wheels, and see-sawing the car up with jackstands on the torsion tubes (correct lingo??). Some of the stories about falling cars were pretty scary.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll have plenty to do for now, but will post results and more questions as appropriate.

[PaleoMan]

It has been nearly a year since I first posted this thread trying to revive my 79 Targa. I've spent too much attention on my old 59 356, but now my son is interested in the 79 and willing to help get it going.

We have now drained the oil, and drained the gas tank. I started out removing the bottom plug of the gas tank, and regret that now. You can't loosen it fast enough, and all the while you're turning the plug it leaks out a lot of gas down your arm and onto the floor. After the plug came out, the gas poured out so quickly it overflowed my funnel/tube apparatus. It was a dangerous mess. Then I put that plug back in and removed the rear fitting that goes to the pump. When it quit draining, I took the bottom plug back out to finish it off. It's still dribbling out now.

So the question now is, how to flush out the fuel line to the engine? Or do I need to worry about that little bit that is left in the line?

I'll add fuel injector cleaner to this fresh tank of gas. What else do I need to do?

thanks! And my son thanks you too, he'll be the beneficiary of all this and is learning with me.

[LakeCleElum]

Originally Posted by PaleoMan

So the question now is, how to flush out the fuel line to the engine? Or do I need to worry about that little bit that is left in the line?
.

I disconnected the line at both ends. I directed the engine end into a large plastic container. I then blew the line with compressed air. The clear container allowed me to see just how crappy the fuel that was in the line truly was...I then filled the line and did this a 2nd time.

You still have old fuel in the fuel dist, but it's a pain to purge. I'd try to start it up and go from there. If it doesn't run well, I'd next check the spray pattern on the injectors. G'luck.

[mfyoung1086]

You have a compressor? blow the lines out with compressed air to purge them of debris

You may want to consider having the tank professionally cleaned

Also on a side note, after you get that bad boy running again I would change the oil a second time, theres about 1.5 liters of old oil still in that system, and the oil change should really be done with the motor warm

While you're waiting for the tank to get cleaned I would inspect the CIS system for cracked vacuum hoses, check the fuel lines, change the brake fluid, and bleed the breaks, change the trans fluid

brakes system would be high on my list after a cars been sitting for awhile, ask me why haha

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by PaleoMan

It has been nearly a year since I first posted this thread trying to revive my 79 Targa. I've spent too much attention on my old 59 356, but now my son is interested in the 79 and willing to help get it going.

We have now drained the oil, and drained the gas tank. I started out removing the bottom plug of the gas tank, and regret that now. You can't loosen it fast enough, and all the while you're turning the plug it leaks out a lot of gas down your arm and onto the floor. After the plug came out, the gas poured out so quickly it overflowed my funnel/tube apparatus. It was a dangerous mess. Then I put that plug back in and removed the rear fitting that goes to the pump. When it quit draining, I took the bottom plug back out to finish it off. It's still dribbling out now.

So the question now is, how to flush out the fuel line to the engine? Or do I need to worry about that little bit that is left in the line?

I'll add fuel injector cleaner to this fresh tank of gas. What else do I need to do?

thanks! And my son thanks you too, he'll be the beneficiary of all this and is learning with me.

My experience with reviving my 79SC, last year, after 16 year hibernation was that the main problem was the wachsy gunk at the bottom of the fuel tank on and around the bottom mesh fuel filter. And the fuel pump was frozen up. The fuel lines themselves, both to and from the engine did not seem to be impaired. Also I did not have any problems with then fuel injectors. I cleaned out the gasoline gunk at the bottom of the tank with carburator cleaner, rags and a hooked, stiff, wire around where the mesh filter screwed in. I also made sure that the fuel return path into the tank was clear. Of course I replaced both fuel filters. After replacing the fuel pump and gassing up exclusively with regular Chevron (with Texron) everything ran smoothly just like the car has always run. Recently I replaced the engine compartment fuel filter again and found quite some brown dust-like substances pouring out the filter entrance. That shows me to replace the back fuel filter frequently because it catches lose dirt quite efficiently.

[PaleoMan]

Thanks for the replies. The drain plug with the mesh filter was pretty clean when I removed it. To remove the plug, the backward spark plug socket with the ratchet is a cool trick!

I do have a compressor, so will use that to clean the line. I assume that you remove the line at the exit side of the pump, and the entrance to the filter?

I'll put a few gallons of fresh gas, and a bottle of injector cleaner would be a good thing?

Just curious, would it be possible to just remove the line at the engine fuel filter, and then turn the key on to get fuel pump pumping to clear the line?

thanks! hope to try to crank it tonight.

[porwolf]

Like I said, My experience with keeping the fuel lines and injectors pretty much untouched worked out for me. And the gunk in the bottom of my tank was substantial and must have frozen up the original fuel pump. I t seems reasonable that even if the fuel lines were left with old gasolins for a long time there is very little gasoline volume sitting there. So possible gunk deposits must be also minimal. I wish you the best of luck with starting her.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by PaleoMan

Thanks for the replies. The drain plug with the mesh filter was pretty clean when I removed it. To remove the plug, the backward spark plug socket with the ratchet is a cool trick!

I do have a compressor, so will use that to clean the line. I assume that you remove the line at the exit side of the pump, and the entrance to the filter?

I'll put a few gallons of fresh gas, and a bottle of injector cleaner would be a good thing?

Just curious, would it be possible to just remove the line at the engine fuel filter, and then turn the key on to get fuel pump pumping to clear the line?

thanks! hope to try to crank it tonight.

I also used compressed air to check clear passage of both tank outlet and inlet. That seems an easy way to find out. For that the outlet hose from the tank was disconnected as was the return line where it attaches to the tank.

[PaleoMan]

No luck yet... I put a brand new battery in, a few gallons of fresh gas with a bottle of fuel injector cleaner. I thought I'd try it first without trying to blow out the fuel line or change the fuel filter. The one in there was pretty unused, though old from sitting there.

The starter turns nice & fast, but no cylinders fire at all. I pulled a wire off of the distributor and watched it while my son turned it over a few times. Got spark.

I also -- and tell me if this is a big NoNo -- squirted a little starting fluid into the air box just to see if it would fire a cylinder or not. No success with starting fluid either.

So the engine turns fast but doesn't fire. What do we try next?

thanks! A good learning experience for my 16 year old and me.

[Dave Colangelo]

I would put a new distributor cap and rotor on, as well as spark plugs. If that does not work you may want to consider new spark plug wires. Go out at night with all your lights off and have some one crank the car over. If the plug wires are bad they may have brittle casings. If this is the issue you will see little sparks arcing from the wires to the engine.

The issue may also lie in the fuel system, the CIS system on these cars is very susceptible to issues. Some of these things can be expensive to fix. You may want to test the flow of the fuel system some how. There are others here who will know more about that than me.

Regards
Dave

[mfyoung1086]

Have you check to make sure the fuel pump is working?

I mean a new cap, rotor, plugs, wires those are some items that you'd wanna replace before your son starts driving it around, but its rare that I've seen those be the reason a car won't start, as long as the plugs are in decent shape, and properly gapped, and the spark plug wires are destroyed

I really believe you need to pull that tank and send it out for cleaning..... 6 years is a long time for gas to sit and break down, but really you've alreay check spark, you need to check fuel, and we'll go from there

[LakeCleElum]

Modern fuel that has set a long time is very poor.....Often you can't set fire to it with a match..There is a reason you were advised to purge the fuel line(s)....You need to get fresh fuel to the injectors (fresh plugs would be a good idea also).......If you have spark, I'd not go crazy replacing wires, cap, etc.....

[porwolf]

Have you checked whether any gas arrives at the injectors. I have never done it but others on the forum have just pulled one injector and stuck it into a glass jar to see the gas squirting out. That seems to me like a good way to find out whether fuel goes into the cylinders. I would searach a little on the forum on the subject of fuel injectors. And how to pull them out and to properly seat them again.

[boyt911sc]

Mitch,

I sent you a PM some 11 months ago and got a reply today and was happy to hear from you. I enjoy CIS troubleshooting to a point that I look for something that would challenge me. The more complex and difficult the problem, the more I get interested. There are many guys in this forum that would assist you. Since you or son would be doing the diagnostic tests and return with your findings, it would nice to have a timely feedback.

If I would do the diagnostic to make your car run again, I would do the following:
1). Clean and purge the gas tank. Remove dirt and debris.
2). Check if you get sparks when you crank the engine. Replace plugs as needed.
3). Hook up a fully charge battery in good condition.
4). Check if the FP is running and do a pressure test.
5). Get a fuel pressure gauge kit.

Next, connect the fuel delivery system back together.
----gas tank filter installed
----FP properly hook up
----delivery and return lines connected
----no need to replace old fuel filter at this point!!!!
----check all electrical connections
----inspect fuel lines
----check the FD plunger is free from binding. Move it up and down.
----check oil level (oil level by the end of the dip stick is OK).

Test I:
Fill up the empty gas tank with gasoline (2 - 3 gallons) and add a bottle of injector cleaner. Pull out the six (6) injectors and place each in a suitable receiver (container or bottle). Turn the ignition switch @ ON position (not start) and lift the AFS (air flow sensor) plate............FP will start to run and fuel injectors will start to spray fuel. Keep the FP running off and on for several minutes to allow fuel to pass thru the FD and injectors. Inspect all fuel injectors for spray. Or drip during shut-off period. Use only good working injectors replace as needed.

Inspect fuel line fittings for any sign of fuel leak, under the car and above the engine.

Test II.
Install fuel injectors back into the runner/s. Hook up fuel pressure gauge between FD and WUR. Test run the FP and measure the cold control fuel and system pressures. Check residual pressure.

Test III.
Manually crank the engine several revolutions.
Add fuel to the tank.
Change oil as needed.
Start the engine.

If you have any question feel free just ask. If the engine fails to start or run, detail test would be suggested to determine the culprit. Keep us posted and please don't wait a year to reply (just kidding).

Tony

[rodrigose]

I'd suggest a few other steps before trying to start the engine.