Is the fuse panel grounded???

[Cdnone1]

I am still trying to find to ground short/fault.
I have chased it back to the power supply of the fuse panel.
The red/black wire from the 5 pin connector going to the ignition switch was showing a ground fault. I chased it back to where it enters the top of the fuse panel on fuse #12.
Everything is disconnected and the fuse is out.
I removed the red/black wire from the fuse block and the ground fault/ continuity went away
When I put the continuity meter on the top of the fuse holder on fuse 12 and ground I get a tone meaning a ground fault.

Are the top of the fuse mounts grounded?
Are they connected to each other?

The only way I could have a continuity between the top of fuse block 12 and ground is if they where connected or grounded somewhere.
Thanks

[HawgRyder]

The mounting screws will be grounded....but all the terminals should be "above" ground to work properly.
The continuity or voltage reading you get at any one fuse represents the resistance of the object that the fuse is protecting.
In other words...each light bulb, fan motor, and ignition box is being supplied with voltage starting at the battery....going through a fuse...then to a switch (perhaps)...and finally the object being powered.
If the voltage were to be shorted to ground at any point before the object....the fuse should blow...and the fan, light, or whatever would not work.
Bob

[ossiblue]

Several fuse terminals on the block are linked together via a copper jumper behind the block itself. According the the diagram for an 82, fuse terminal12 is linked to fuse 11. That means if fuse 12 is removed and you are connecting to the top terminal (the feed side), you are also connecting to the top of fuse 11 at the same time. Is fuse 11 still in place? If so, you would be reading continuity through the circuit of fuse 11 to wherever it was grounded. Try removing fuse 11 and see if you still get a continuity to ground signal from terminal 12.

If I understand your post correctly, you first tested the red/black wire by checking for continuity to ground from the 5-pin connector and found a ground. Then you repeated the test from the 5-pin connector but removed the red/black wire from the fuse terminal and there was no continuity to ground, correct? That would make sense because now you would have an open circuit with the wire in contact with nothing. Then you tested the fuse holder (terminals in the block) itself with the wire removed and the fuse removed and got continuity to ground, correct? If I have understood you correctly then isolate the circuit by removing the fuse in terminal 11 and report what you find.

[Cdnone1]

Thank you
I have done everything you said but I have a red wire running from the top of fuse holder 11 to the top of fuse holder 16 (fuel pump relay).
When I pull the relay the continuity goes away.
What I am trying to figure out is why I am having a continuity problem from the 30 terminal in the ignition switch. I traced it to the pin connector coming thru the dash.
It looks like the pin coming thru the dash to power the 30 terminal @ the ignition switch also has a common connection with the red and black wire going to fuse number 12 before the ignition switch.
I'm just so utterly confused that I am getting sick of trying to solve this problem.
Here is a recap of the major problem.
The car's starter will not engage when turning the ignition switch.
If I use the direct fused wire to start the car it works.
If I attach the yellow wire and my direct line at terminal 50 on the starter and try and start the car I blow the fuse on the direct line.
So I figure I have a short somewhere in the circuit from terminal 30 at the ignition switch thru to terminal 50 at the starter.
Also once the car starts it runs fine for about 30 seconds then starts running like crap, backfire, stuttering etc.
I figured this could be caused by a short to ground somewhere.
I feel like I have been going around in circles for over a week with this.
Before anyone asks.
The starter is good. New and bench tested.
The ignition switch is brand new. The battery is new and bench tested so it has to be in the wiring somewhere

Thanks
Steve

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by Cdnone1

Thank you
I have done everything you said but I have a red wire running from the top of fuse holder 11 to the top of fuse holder 16 (fuel pump relay).
When I pull the relay the continuity goes away.
What I am trying to figure out is why I am having a continuity problem from the 30 terminal in the ignition switch. I traced it to the pin connector coming thru the dash.
It looks like the pin coming thru the dash to power the 30 terminal @ the ignition switch also has a common connection with the red and black wire going to fuse number 12 before the ignition switch.
I'm just so utterly confused that I am getting sick of trying to solve this problem.
Here is a recap of the major problem.
The car's starter will not engage when turning the ignition switch.
If I use the direct fused wire to start the car it works.
If I attach the yellow wire and my direct line at terminal 50 on the starter and try and start the car I blow the fuse on the direct line.
So I figure I have a short somewhere in the circuit from terminal 30 at the ignition switch thru to terminal 50 at the starter.
Also once the car starts it runs fine for about 30 seconds then starts running like crap, backfire, stuttering etc.
I figured this could be caused by a short to ground somewhere.
I feel like I have been going around in circles for over a week with this.
Before anyone asks.
The starter is good. New and bench tested.
The ignition switch is brand new. The battery is new and bench tested so it has to be in the wiring somewhere

Thanks
Steve

Okay, take a deep breath and release some of that frustration--you'll get this solved.

After reading the above post, I'm a bit confused as to what the "direct fused wire to terminal 50" is, but let's not worry about that. May I suggest you do the following procedures to set up a systematic trouble shooting plan:

Hook up all wires and install all fuses and relays as they should be so your car shows the original symptom which, as I understand it, is turning the key fails to engage the starter motor. Now, try the following tests and report your results:

1. Turn the ignition to "start". If as before, the starter shouldn't engage but do any fuses blow? Report your results.

2. If nothing happens after test 1, look behind the ignition switch for the yellow wire and it's connector. I believe there are two places where the yellow wire has a connector--one is between the ignition switch and the 5-pin plug in the bulkhead, the other is inside the trunk where the wire loom exits the 5-pin connector If you do have two connectors on the yellow wire, perform the following test at each location: Unplug the yellow wire and connect a meter to the side coming from the ignition switch. Have some one turn the switch to "start" and report your results--you should get 12 volts.

3. If you got a 12 volt reading from test 2, perform the next test: With the yellow wire still disconnected, you will now use the side of the wire that runs to the starter. Use a jumper wire (with a fuse) and connect one end to a non-switched power source. With the ignition off (but your jumper wire still powered), touch the end of the jumper wire to the end of the yellow wire--the starter should engage. Report your results.

Try the three steps above, report your results, and let's go from there.

[Cdnone1]

Thanks I'll try this Monday. I'm taking a break from the car today.
By direct fused wire. I ran a ten gauge wire from the battery thru a fuse to a momentary switch I installed in the dash and then to terminal 50 at the starter solenoid. When I press the dash switch the car starts


If I join the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch and the wire I ran direct from the battery and try and start the car the fuse in the direct line blows

I have so many things apart now that I think your idea is the way to go.
I will restore the car to normal and start your trouble shooting plan


Thanks everyone for the help


Steve

[ossiblue]

Thanks for the explanation of the fused wire. What you essentially did is rewire the starter by bypassing the ignition switch and yellow wire through a simple, two leg circuit--leg 1, from battery to button; leg 2, from button to starter.

Now the key question is, when you connected your direct wire to the yellow wire, how did you make the connection?

If you follow my trouble shooting steps in my last post, you can use the following design for test 3:

Let's keep this simple and use your in dash button circuit. Keep leg 1 in place (fused wire from battery to button) and substitute the yellow wire for leg 2. Be sure the yellow wire is disconnected from the ignition switch at one of the single connectors and be sure you connect the side of the yellow wire that runs to the starter to the dash button. (Also, be sure you have connected the yellow wire to the solenoid and disconnected your direct wire.)

Now, push your dash button. The starter should engage, does it? If so, the yellow wire is okay. Does the fuse blow on your leg 1 wire to the button? If so the yellow wire is shorted to ground somewhere between the button and starter.

[boyt911sc]

Steve,

I've been following your saga and I would refrain from giving you additional instructions. I would let LJ handle this troubleshooting with you. And we seem to have similar outlook in locating the culprit. What I would like to see from your side is information that would help the people assisting you to have a good picture of the tests. For example: To test a particular continuity (section) indicate point A and point B. Since you do the actual tests and we are relying on your information, knowing exactly where the test points were made, would give a better perspective of your work. I have to assume sometimes that maybe you did it this way or that way. But that does not help me a lot to realize if the test was done the way it should be done.

Secondly, you got to isolate the wire/s from point X to point Y for continuity. Otherwise, you'll have a false signal because the circuits have load/resistance that are grounded to complete the circuit. And that's the one giving you problem in your continuity test!!!!!! Use the wiring diagram as reference and look for circuit individually. Each circuit is grounded to complete the circuit and doing a continuity test without knowing the circuit's load is confusing you!!!! Someone earlier has brought this subject to your attention.

Tony

[Cdnone1]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

Okay, take a deep breath and release some of that frustration--you'll get this solved.

After reading the above post, I'm a bit confused as to what the "direct fused wire to terminal 50" is, but let's not worry about that. May I suggest you do the following procedures to set up a systematic trouble shooting plan:

Hook up all wires and install all fuses and relays as they should be so your car shows the original symptom which, as I understand it, is turning the key fails to engage the starter motor. Now, try the following tests and report your results:

1. Turn the ignition to "start". If as before, the starter shouldn't engage but do any fuses blow? Report your results.

2. If nothing happens after test 1, look behind the ignition switch for the yellow wire and it's connector. I believe there are two places where the yellow wire has a connector--one is between the ignition switch and the 5-pin plug in the bulkhead, the other is inside the trunk where the wire loom exits the 5-pin connector If you do have two connectors on the yellow wire, perform the following test at each location: Unplug the yellow wire and connect a meter to the side coming from the ignition switch. Have some one turn the switch to "start" and report your results--you should get 12 volts.

3. If you got a 12 volt reading from test 2, perform the next test: With the yellow wire still disconnected, you will now use the side of the wire that runs to the starter. Use a jumper wire (with a fuse) and connect one end to a non-switched power source. With the ignition off (but your jumper wire still powered), touch the end of the jumper wire to the end of the yellow wire--the starter should engage. Report your results.

Try the three steps above, report your results, and let's go from there.

OK I'm back
I put the car back together.
I disconnected the direct line from the starter.
I started testing with the battery reading 12.2 Volts at the terminals ( it is down a little from everything i have been doing)

Step 1. I turn the key and the starter does not engage. No fuses blow.
Step 2. I disconnect the yellow wire where it comes through to the trunk and measure the side coming from the ignition switch. I am getting 12.06 Volts.

Step 3 I connect my direct wire from the battery thru a fuse and momentary switch to the end of the yellow wire coming out of the dash (inside the trunk) to the side running to the 14 pin connector.
I try to start the car with the momentary switch and blow a 10amp fuse on the direct line. I replace the 10 amp fuse with a 25 amp fuse. I try and start the car but the start does not engage. I do not blow the 25 amp fuse.
Does this help and what should I do next.
Also I can't thank you enough

Steve

[ossiblue]

Okay, that tells us something.

With your direct wire connected directly to the starter, it engaged with no problems on a 10 amp fuse. With the yellow wire connected to the starter, it blew the 10 amp fuse but didn't blow the 25 amp fuse but the starter did not engage.

Now, the only difference in the two circuits (direct wire and yellow wire) is the yellow wire does not connect directly to the starter solenoid. It branches off to the following devices:

Heat ventilator switch to the heat ventilator relay

The fuel pump relay/fuel pump

The starter solenoid.

You should not blow a 25 amp fuse for the starter solenoid--it is basically a relay for the starter motor and since you had no problem engaging the solenoid/motor with your direct wire, I'd say the starter/solenoid is okay.

I suspect you have a problem with another device on the yellow wire circuit, quite possibly the fuel pump. The way the circuit is set up, when you turn on the ignition switch, the fuel pump relay energizes and internally switches a power connection to the fuel pump via the yellow wire. When you turn the key to "start", power flows through the yellow wire to the fuel pump at the same time it sends power to the starter solenoid. Try this next test:

Remove the fuel pump relay. This will eliminate the fuel pump from the yellow wire circuit. Now, try your test with the dash button connected to the yellow wire, and a 10 amp fuse. Does the starter engage? Does the fuse blow?

I am not familiar with the heat ventilator switch or relay as my cars do not have them. However, the ventilator switch could be bad and shorting to ground. However, let's eliminate the fuel pump branch of the circuit first.

[Cdnone1]

I removed the fuel pump relay. I tried the dash switch. The car did not start. The starter did not engage. The 15 amp fuse (I ran out of 10amps) did not blow.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by Cdnone1

I removed the fuel pump relay. I tried the dash switch. The car did not start. The starter did not engage. The 15 amp fuse (I ran out of 10amps) did not blow.

Okay. The car would not start because the fuel pump was not on, but the starter should have engaged if that was the problem. Remember, you have no problem engaging the starter with your direct connection/dash button.

Now, I'm in unfamiliar territory regarding the other parts of the yellow wire circuit. I'll do a bit of searching and maybe someone else can contribute to this. Don't give up, we'll all find the solution together.

[Cdnone1]

As a back story. For the last few months when I turned the headlights on the speedometer would jump all around and stay at around 40mph even when stopped. Don't know if that is related other than it's electrical

[ossiblue]

The speedo story may have some connection but only through things I've read on the forum (my speedo is mechanical). I have read threads where faulty alternators/voltage regulators can cause havoc with the gauges--tach and speedo especially. Also, several have posted the need to have a fully charged battery to ensure starting.

Here are my thoughts to this point.

I think you have eliminated the starter/solenoid as a problem.

I'm also fairly comfortable that the fuel pump is also good, as you eliminated it from the circuit when you removed the relay. I emphasized "fairly" because I think I remember you mentioning rough running of the engine in an earlier post which could be from a faulty fuel pump. However, in your testing of the yellow wire, when the 10 amp fuse blew but the 25 amp didn't, that could be normal as the pump can draw around 16 amps in normal running and for the brief time it is run off the yellow wire (during the start cycle), it certainly could blow a 10 amp fuse.

My early car does not have the branches off the yellow wire--it is a direct connection to the starter. On your 82, you have those other devices but I don't know where the connectors are in the car where you can eliminate them from the circuit. If you can find the connectors along the yellow wire to the heater switch and heater motor and disconnect them, you can isolate the yellow wire so it connects directly to the starter. If you can do that and run your test with the dash button, you should be able to find out if the problem is with the wire to the solenoid itself, as that's all that would be in the circuit from the battery to the starter.

At this point, no need to get the car running, just see if you can engage the starter regularly.

[Cdnone1]

The starter and solenoid are fine. The starter is new, has been bench tested and starts every time I use the direct line I wired.
I'm pretty sure the problem is a to ground short somewhere as even when I start the car with the direct line something is causing to run rough.
Now If anyone can help me form here I would appreciate it
Thanks for all your help

[boyt911sc]

Steve,

1). Disconnect the 14-pin connector. Pull out the female connector (engine harness connector) from the male connector (chassis harness connector).
2). Turn the ignition switch to ON position (not start).
3). Use your power source line with momentary switch connected to the battery and supply power to 14-1 (engine side connector) not on the chassis side. Energize the solenoid valve and find out if the starter spins or not.
Note: I usually attach a test light to the power source to make sure it has power when the momentary switch is activated or remove it prior to test. Fabricate a good connection for the 14-1.

I don't expect the engine to START. But wanted to see how the starter/solenoid behaves during this test. Some additional tests you could do to determine the integrity of the yellow wire between 14-1 and solenoid @50.
a). Disconnect the yellow wire to the solenoid @ 50. Check the continuity between 14-1 and disconnected terminal (yellow wire). There should be continuity!!!!!
b). Since you had suspected this yellow wire to be some what grounded, this is the time to test it. Use a test light for this test. Supply 12 volts to TL and use 14-1 as ground.
b-1). Yellow wire disconnected from solenoid.
b-2). Yellow wire connected to solenoid (original condition).

If you have any question, please PM me and will explain. BTW, this is the first part of the test. Keep us posted.

Tony

[Cdnone1]

Thanks for all the help.
I'm going to have the car towed and have someone else solve this.
I am beginning to really hate even thinking about trying to solve this so I'm going to step back and let someone else do it.

Steve

[ossiblue]

Steve,

You gave it a good shot and we've all been a similar spot. Good luck on the repair and please post the results! I'm sure others, like Tony, are as interested as I about the solution.

[Cdnone1]

Thanks
Tony is going to help me off list. I think I have used enough of Waynes band with on this. I can't get to it until this weekend anyway

[Cdnone1]

Problem solved.
Tony has been helping me walk thru this step by step and we isolated the problem. It was a bad connector between the Y connector where the yellow wire splits i the trunk of the car. Once that was cleaned up the starting problem disappeared. I took apart and cleaned almost everything in the process so I hoping I'm good for another 20 years. The 14 pin connector was easier to take apart and clean than I thought it was going to be.
Tony was very helpful, methodical and helped me out when I was frustrated to the point of having the car towed some where. I really don't like electrical.
Now I have another issue. The car starts right up, revs, idles nothing wrong for the first 30 seconds then starts bucking, if I "give it a little gas" it starts to pop and idle drops then it will die around 40-45 seconds. It feels like it is getting good fuel pressure to start then starts suffering from fuel starvation. Ideas!?
Thanks for everyones input on solving the non start issue