1976 911 S

[Mr_ET]

Hi guys,

I recently found this forum and wonderful site when my father told me he was interested in buying a 1976 911 Targa S and he wanted me to find out more about them.

Currently the 2.7L is out of the car and apparently one of the heads was leaking so my guess is it may need a rebuild.

The engine has 72000 original miles on it.

The engine will be dropped off at Alpine Autowerks here in Calgary so we can see how it is doing.

The car will need new tires and right now it is sitting on the stock Fuch wheels.

The sticker inside the trunk panel says tires should be 185/70/R15 all the way around

Currently it has crappy non matching tires with 195/65's in the front and 205/60 out back.

I have started looking at tires for him and it seems that it will be difficult to find high performance summer tires on those sizes.

I don't know how wide the wheels are yet but what would you guys recommend on those wheels to get a bit more selection?

The car is not lowered and my father wants to keep these wheels for the vintage look.

Here are some pics of the car when he picked it up:

Keep in mind I have not had a chance to wash it yet




Any advise about the car, the engine or the tires would be gratly appreciated!

thx

Etienne

[ZoomGlide125]

i've got a boxster, so im not one to help much ...but welcome and yeah from what ive read a lot of the air cooled engines need a rebuild when they get higher mileage on them (depending on how well its been maintained, of course!)

some recommended reading: bentley publishers service manual for the older 911's. i bought the book and do my own brake fluid and pads, oil & filter changes, engine seals, clutch... flywheel, struts, tie-rods, etc etc in that manual you'll be able to find out everything from camber settings to the torque on each individual bolt to suppliers of special tools! Wayne Dempsey also wrote a few books I HIGHLY recommend!

anyway, welcome again, and good luck with the targa!

chris

[Kevins911]

Welcome Etienne,
Those wheels look to be 15x6's. A 205 60 15 is about the max width tire you can get in the rear with out some aggressive camber. When I bought my '71 it had the same tire combo as yours and it worked fine for me. The 2.7L engine has its issues, head studs and valve guides were the big problems on these engines. The head studs would pull out of the case, which is fixed by installing time certs. Do not use helicoils. The original valve guides usually failed at around 60,000 miles. It's not a big deal to have them replaced with the newer style valve guides, the heads have to come off anyways to deal with the head studs which is a must do for the 2.7L. Hope this helps, I'm sure more knowledgeable people will chime in and help you out

Kevin

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by AFAlinebacker42

i've got a boxster, so im not one to help much ...but welcome and yeah from what ive read a lot of the air cooled engines need a rebuild when they get higher mileage on them (depending on how well its been maintained, of course!)

some recommended reading: bentley publishers service manual for the older 911's. i bought the book and do my own brake fluid and pads, oil & filter changes, engine seals, clutch... flywheel, struts, tie-rods, etc etc in that manual you'll be able to find out everything from camber settings to the torque on each individual bolt to suppliers of special tools! Wayne Dempsey also wrote a few books I HIGHLY recommend!

anyway, welcome again, and good luck with the targa!

chris

Nice looking car.

Sadly, no Bentley for pre 3.0 liter cars. Only Haynes, the factory manuals, and 101 projects seem to be available. This web site has all kinds of help as well.

As far as the 2.7, if it is rebuilt properly, you can have a very nice engine.

I am assuming you have a narrow body like mine. I have used 205/60-15's with no problems. Unfortunately, as you have already discovered, true performance tires do not come in this size. There are some 205/55-15's out there but most tire makers, if they have 15's at all, will be 205/50-15's. These will fit but your speedo will be off and it will reduce you top speed due to the reducing rolling diameter.

Then again, the "lesser" tire you can buy now has leaps and bounds more performance capability than the tires that came with the car in 1976.

[waynesco1]

Hello I have a 1976 S Targa 2.7 . Now there are a few items to think about # 1 how much money you will spend on repairing the motor / up grades / carrara chain tentioners/ removing thermo reactors , replacing with SSI exhaust / replacing 5 blade fan / rebuilding all brake calipers ,hoses ,master cylinder for safety / now lets start on the motor ? lots to do there / how about the clutch / pressure plate / throw out bearing . 16"/ 7" rims / tires / oh ya the list can go on for suspention up grades . Time to take a look you may get lucky some of this may have already been done to the car . The car may cost more if you cannot do some of the work your self it is fun and rewarding .DO YOUR RESEARCH on costs verses labor of love !

[Mr_ET]

Aside from a potential engine rebuild, I will be doing all the work on the car for him. I have been working on cars for many years and have done a fair share of engine swaps. No worries about the books, we will be getting a few from our host!

As much as I would like a few things like the exhaust upgraded, my father probably won't be able to justify the costs if the stock pieces are still in good shape.

He is not after performance, he wants it as original as it can be. I on the other hand have been all about turbocharging cars and making them faster so we'll see what we can do to give it a bit more pep since it will probably need a rebuild anyway.

I think the restoration/rebuild budget will be around 10K to do it right but that will not leave any room for bigger Fuch wheels/suspension upgrades or an intake and exhaust for the engine.

I will make sure the chain tensioners are upgraded, better headstuds are used and we will install a new factory pressure plate/clutch/flywheel/throw out bearing unless you guys feel that a different clutch and flywheel combo would make the car more driveable and possibly reduce pedal effort while maintaning clamping force.

Does anyone have any experience with the Pirelli P6000? They seem to be the only guys offering somewhat of a performance tire for the car in the 195/65 and 205/60 mentioned.

[davis911s]

First of all welcome. Nice looking car. There are a few members on here from the Calgary area. Check out the "Canada" regional forum.

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

Aside from a potential engine rebuild, I will be doing all the work on the car for him. I have been working on cars for many years and have done a fair share of engine swaps. No worries about the books, we will be getting a few from our host!

GREAT IDEA 101 projects is a great book as is the 911 engine rebuild one, even if you are not doing the rebuild yourself. You are going to love how easy it is to "swap" a 911 engine.

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

As much as I would like a few things like the exhaust upgraded, my father probably won't be able to justify the costs if the stock pieces are still in good shape.

He is not after performance, he wants it as original as it can be. I on the other hand have been all about turbocharging cars and making them faster so we'll see what we can do to give it a bit more pep since it will probably need a rebuild anyway.

It is not just the the looks/ performance. The factory thermal reactors on these RETAINED too much heat and were extrememly hard on the engine. It is not just an "upgrade" look at it as a FIX. I am betting some of these "uppgrades" have already been done to your car. As for rebuilding the engine it might be cheaper to try and find one already rebuilt or find a 3.0 in running condition to swap in. It will be cheaper. 911 engines are not cheap to rebuild

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

I think the restoration/rebuild budget will be around 10K to do it right but that will not leave any room for bigger Fuch wheels/suspension upgrades or an intake and exhaust for the engine.

Getting it on the road is a great start, then you can move into upgrades down the road. But try to think the project through. No sense buying something now if you KNOW you are going to "upgrade" it in a year (ie; stock exhaust) Parts are $

Have fun and I am sure we will be hearing lots from you

Shawn

[Paulporsche]

Hello and welcome. Your father's car looks very nice.

If I were you I would do these things:

Fix the engine as described above and do a complete tuneup or swap in a good 3.0L
Do the required clutch work you described
Install turbo tie rod ends, lower the car to 25"R and 25.5"F, and install the bump steer kit
Install the 11 blade fan
Install the pressurized chain tensioners
Install a popoff valve in the airbox
Go w/ the Pirellis you mentioned. I had them when I had the original 6x15 Fuchs (like yours). While not a true hi perf tire by today's standards, they will give you better roadholding than the 185/70s and I think will still look period "close enough".

Search this site for threads on the CIS fuel injection. Sooner or later you will have issues. There are many posters who have experience w/ this system and can help you.

Have fun and keep us apprised of your progress.

[Mr_ET]

I will make sure to keep you guys posted on the progress.

How do I know if I possibly already have the turbo tie rods on there?

I'll try and have a closer look at things and take some pictures maybe tonight of tomorrow night if time allows.

[ZoomGlide125]

a little more pep...




cheers

[Ricks911s]

I'm surprised not a single person has recommended doing a PPI (pre-purchase inspection). Now it'll be more difficult with the engine out of the car so it looks like your options are either (a) to trust "Alpine Autowerks" who has the engine to give you all the dirty on the engine or (b) to pay someone a little money to get an objective view on things. (Also it looks like there's an alarm system there? Be careful with those . . . they can cause electrical gremlins)

I bought a 1976 911S and didn't get a PPI. For me, the one I found was so cheap I could have parted the car out for twice what I bought it for. I also figured, since this would be my first 911 and the second car I've ever worked on (the first was a '73 VW bug), I'd rather make a mistake on a 2.7L engine (which is generally agreed as one of the worst air-cooled 911 engines) than one of the better engines (like the 3.0).

I could go on and on but it might help if I briefly list some pro's and con's of a 76 911 (with the disclaimer others might disagree) based on MY experience:

Pro's
(1) First year of the galvanized body -- less proned to rust
(2) CIS fuel injection is considered reliable
(3) Many interchangeable parts with 1974s to 1983s (share same fuel injection system . . . motronic introduced in 1984 . . . I qualify this statement by saying there are slight differences with different years)
(4) Body is "mostly similar/interchangable" between 1974-1989

Con's
(1) Engine is prone to what other's have mentioned - broken head studs, etc. One must factor on either (a) rebuild, (b) engine transplant, or (c) running the engine with minimal work and crossing your fingers (you can check prices on (a) and (b) if you use the search feature.
(2) OEM fuel pumps are EXPENSIVE -- why, I don't know (walbro offers a less expensive alternative) . . . but these don't last forever
(3) stock CIS fuel injection lines are plastic instead of the steel lines on later CIS cars
(4) Smogging can be a pain in the butt (car has smog pump, reactors, etc.) I live in CA and got screwed with the 30-year rollover rule expiring. This just means that I thought the car would be smog exempt when I bought it and then the legislature decided all cars 1976 and older would have to be smogged. Sucks.

This is a short list but I'm sure others can add.

[Paulporsche]

Etienne,

Check the new parts catalog on this site to see what the various types look like.

BTW you probably won't even need the bump steer kit for those ride heights I mentioned.

[timc]

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

As much as I would like a few things like the exhaust upgraded, my father probably won't be able to justify the costs if the stock pieces are still in good shape.

The factory exhaust on that car (thermal reactors) generate alot of heat, contributing the the short valve guide life, so if you don't need them for the visual emissions, I'd get rid of them, regardless of condition, and backdate to the early style with SSI. You can still use your oem muffler, just weld up the inlet pipe for the air injection that is in the center of the rear portion of the muffler. This move will enhance the life of your rebuild, plus give you another 10-20% HP.

[Mr_ET]

The car does not need to meet smog laws but it was originally a California car so I am pretty sure all the unnecessary smog stuff is on there and robbing us of some power.

How much would I be looking at roughly to rebuild a 2.7L and would that involve completely changing out the heads, pistons and rods?

My father purchased the car based on an inspection a mechanic friend did but there was no PPI done

I would have liked him to get one but that is in the past now. I am laying everything out on the ground tomorrow and taking pics of all parts so that I can reference them if the shop tries to screw us over but I am pretty sure they will do a good job and they have a good reputation in town.

If we scrap the 2.7 and go for a 3.0 can the 2.7 tranny be reused and what would need to be modified to make the conversion work? What sort of money would I be looking at to do that conversion?

Appreciate all the help everyone!

thx

Etienne

[RWebb]

6-10k to rebuild, depending on DIYing & amt. of machine work needed

915 trans will bolt up to any 2.7, 3L or 3.2L (cutouts needed on bellhousing)

[timc]

Originally Posted by Mr_ET

The car does not need to meet smog laws but it was originally a California car so I am pretty sure all the unnecessary smog stuff is on there and robbing us of some power.

How much would I be looking at roughly to rebuild a 2.7L and would that involve completely changing out the heads, pistons and rods?

My father purchased the car based on an inspection a mechanic friend did but there was no PPI done

I would have liked him to get one but that is in the past now. I am laying everything out on the ground tomorrow and taking pics of all parts so that I can reference them if the shop tries to screw us over but I am pretty sure they will do a good job and they have a good reputation in town.

If we scrap the 2.7 and go for a 3.0 can the 2.7 tranny be reused and what would need to be modified to make the conversion work? What sort of money would I be looking at to do that conversion?

Appreciate all the help everyone!

thx

Etienne

I had a 77 2.7S, bought it with approx 60k, took it down to a long block, removed all SMOG, bought a used set of early style heat exchangers, re torqued the heads, cleaned it up, put it back in the car. My bother has it now with just over 100k runs very strong.

You can go as far as you want with this, just depends on how much money you have to spend, and what shape the engine is in now, and what you plan to do (track, easy street life ect...).

If your dad wants to keep it as close to stock, then keep the 2.7. If he is not going to track it or drive it hard, no daily hot city stop and go, nice long country roads and highway! then you may be ok just doing a topend (rings, valve job)

[Mr_ET]

He plans to drive it around on nice days and I don't expect him to drive it hard at all so I will mention that to the shop when I drop off the engine.

[afterburn 549]

There are two graphs to draw $$$$$$$$ wise. Very little (LOL) and keep it stock ....Bury yourself in as I did and have a car you want.
Depending what you payed for it It is hard to come out on top if you buy into a rebuild...............But if you do...Weeeeee you can have a lot of fun with a proper done eng.!!!
I think you need to popst exactly what you want performance wise , post it and let us help you spends your money

[Crashly]

Well I just bought my 77 Targa a few months ago and I just finished going through the same path that you are going through. Sincs NO PPI was done and your dad likes the car make sure that all the upgrades are done and the 2.7 can be a great motor with longetivity. I just had mine rebuilt and the price including tax was $4400. That included cleaning out the fuel injectors, New clutch, all machine work, New exhaust valves, Balancing the motor, Time serts througout the cases, New valve guides, New cam gears, etc etc. My rebuilder came highly recomended on the engine rebuilding sight. I could have probably done it cheaper somewhere else but my rebulder has over 30 years experience with these motors. I did reuse my pistons and cylinders as my rebuilder has the correct tooling (from the makers of the original cylinders) to reuse the Nikisal cylinders, yes they can be reused if they are still in spec, mine were in great shape with 124K on them. Plan on spending another 1000 on additional parts while you have the motor out. My car had all of the upgrades already before I had it rebuilt which included SSI, fender oil cooler, Carrera tensioners, Pop off, 11 blade. With your budget of 10K you should be able to make that car a nice driver, if you do as much as possible of the work. Dont forget about the transmission as well. Mine is coming up for a rebuild and If I do it myself that will be 1K. How about your interior? Brakes, Targa seals? No matter what you do these old cars are like a dry money sponge they will soak up every penny. Unfortunately the 2.7 cars do not demand as high as a price as the 2.2, 2.4 and 3.0 cars of similiar eras. If you are doing this for an investment it may take some time. If it puts a big smile on your dads face when he drives it then it will be worth every penny.

[afterburn 549]

Nothing wrong with that deal !!!!
What I ment is...if you want to go hot rod , the labor is about the same . Parts will very in price
Personaly I would go with a 964 grind , keep the CIS, Bump the C.R. a little. A good exhaust, Get rid of some pounds and have some fun !!