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Looking for first 911...need help...possible car found!
Good Morning All,
I am new to this forum and yet another guy that has always wanted to be behind the wheel of his own Porsche. I am 46 now and think it is time I treat myself to my "mid-life" crisis car but want to do it on a budget of $20k or less (this includes the PPI or actually a CPO done by local Porsche dealer). Here is the current car in my sights: 1990 Black C4 Targa with 89k miles. My major concern is I want to make sure I am not stepping into major problems right from the onset by choosing this model and/or this particular car. The internet forums seem to be riddled with stories of major repair bills on these cars while other posts talk about longevity before any major overhauls have had to be done.....Basically, I am more confused the more I read! Here are some of the details of the car: fully optioned with full leather interior, electric sports seats, power windows, power steering, power brakes with ABS and Traction Control,, power mirrors, remote central locking, air conditioning (blows cold), and cruise control. Radio was replaced with a Panasonic CD/Receiver 45Wx4 that has a remote key pad for control. Bottom engine rebuild and clutch in 2009. Additional equipment comprises Cup 2 alloys wheels running 225/40 ZR18 in front and 265/35 ZR18 in rear, high flow exhaust, and whale tail spoiler. This particular car appears to be in excellent shape, has been garaged it's whole life and the current owner (think 3rd or 4th owner) has had her for 8 years and is selling due to divorce (no one likes to hear that) He seems to know his car very well and says he has a stack of service records from his ownership and the previous owners to share with me. The clutch was done about 3k ago along with some other bottom end items that were suggested by his mechanic to do at the same time. The car has a totally rebuilt targa roof that has never been folded and when removed is set in the guys garage for days that he knows will remain clear and rain-free. The reason I like this car is that these years are currently at an affordable sales price, have the classic 911 look and with the car being about 85% new in 1989, many say this made for a more modern and refined driver. From what I have read the the C4 seems to have really made this generation a much more forgiving car without taking performance out of her. People seem to love or hate the C4 due to it's different handling characteristics. I am not looking for a track car just a nice weekend driver that I can safely run around town in and then open up when on the open highway or less-traveled back roads. I have had experience with the early 911's through friends that have owned them (early 70's cars) and do not miss the rear end surprises they exhibit if you do not stay on the accelerator in fast turns. Where I got a renewed interest in the 911 was this summer......My good friend has a 2001 C2 with less than 20k on it and I drove it for a week while visiting him in Washington state. Seemed very fast for a N/A and loved the feel of the car...much more forgiving that the older C2's I had driven. I just prefer the traditional look of the 911...he also had a sunroof and I have always liked the Targa design because it is more open air than the sunroof and less wind and noise than a cab... I have contacted my local Porsche dealer and was told that their PPI is just as the CPO inspection would be done. They quoted me $250 to do it but when you add the compression/leak test it adds another $650 to the cost (have seen many posts that insist on having this done)....since labor is already paid, I asked about a plug change at the same time...the additional cost is $181.64 to add for the plugs. The CPO does the DME dump, looks over the RMS, and seems looks to go over the car pretty well. Alot of posts seem to say that if I buy a 89-91 I should only buy one that has had the top end rebuild.....I would really appreciate your thoughts on all this. Thanks |
a 964 C4 often means stepping into major problems right from the onset
if you need AWD the 993 system is far simpler and cheaper to fix AFAIK |
The targa top is better than the SC/Carrera era tops but, a coupe w/o sunroof will give you the best resale value. Agree with the C4 being a parts hole for cash, if it starts to fail. 90 C2 coupe are going for $15-25k now adays, great deals out there.
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Unless you have some very specific reasons for wanting a 1990 C4, I'd suggest looking at other years/models.
I.e., if you are a porsche newbie and just want a nice older 911, and are only looking at this particular car b/c you happened to come across it, do more research. |
you wont be able to get a new car CPO certification on a car that old...they might do basic inspection that they give new cars... it wont be the same as what you need for this car.
you are better off getting a PPI from an independent porsche shop if your are going to be dealing with a used 20yr old car, and their service rate might be better. labor for installing new plugs might get thrown in there since they are going to have to remove them to do part of the inspection anyway. post what town you are in and maybe a local pelican can point you in the right direction |
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Since the pup was built before approximately June, 1991, there are noted things to look for that could be quite expensive if in need of repair (or not yet done). I recall Pete's book mentioning these series.....several footnotes (as I recall...). I'd review the service records very carefully..... I would question conducting a PPI at the dealer on a car of this age. It may (very well) be a fact that someone in the dealership DOES know these, but I'd certainly run it by dedicated shops who KNOW these cars intimately (no less)...just my opinion (however). Best to you, Doyle |
I agree
1990-94 C4 -can- be a fine car, but near the bottom of the 'desirable' list. IF you can find a C2 car from the same era, you will enjoy a lighter, faster car that still has some potential problems to look for, but FAR LESS potential problems than the C4. That (In my opinion) is why it seems that there are so many 1990-94 C4s available, at a lower price than their two-wheel-drive counterparts. |
Being a power boat nut you are probably use to sinking a lot of cash in your purchase so maybe the C 4 will be an okay choice. I agree with he C2 comments, but would still stretch a bit for the mid-life and go for a 993S.
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[QUOTE=powerboatnut;5739494]
I am new to this forum and yet another guy that has always wanted to be behind the wheel of his own Porsche. I am 46 now and think it is time I treat myself to my "mid-life" crisis car but want to do it on a budget of $20k or less (this includes the PPI or actually a CPO done by local Porsche dealer). OK, is this your only criteria: A Porsche for $20k or less? If so you will have many, many choices, including some of the earlier cars, which will hold their value over time. You need to give us more info about what motivates you. A great P car at a great price? A newer model? A specific year? Or will any nice Porsche do? |
Personally I would go for a 3.2 Carrera over a C4. A bit older but much less hassle.
Of course I bought a 3.2 Carrera recently so I might be biased... Excellence recently rated the 3.2 cars the #1 Porsche to buy under $16k. |
Besides, C4's chip the paint down the sides of the rockers, fronts of the rear flares. There was at a Pcar driving event here last summer... I knew a dark colored car was a C4 from 50 yards away. :)
That drive system is fairly complex... not as desireable and you don't appear to live in the snowbelt. |
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Again, may be paranoid here, but setting off warning bells for me. Dale |
I agree with others here about the C4 potential problems. I have a friend who has one and loves it, but he bought it cheap and had the ability to fix 4wd issues. You might want to figure extra money into your budget, or purchase a car that doesn't 'top you out' knowing that you will be putting more $ into it. My budget was $14,000 - so I bought a $10,000 car. Get a copy of Zimmerman's book and read it for a good, quick overall reference to model differences.
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Hello and welcome. I would add a +1 on the comments made above especially regarding what your criteria is. Fortunately the 911 has been with us for quite a few years and offers many different versions for many different types of drivers. I started off with an '84 3.2 and found myself seeking a little more refinement so now I have a 95' 993.The 964 series are really nice cars. I have only driven a Carrera 2 (cross shopping while looking at the 993) and found it to be a nice blend of the old and new. Good luck with your search.
Chris |
89K and a BOTTOM end rebuild? Rundafuchaway....
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Thanks for all the input so far...here are some responses to your questions
Thanks to all of you so far that have taken the time to give input to help guide my way to become part of the Porsche family. Several questions have come up as to why I am looking at this particular car and the 964 series, especially the C4. Here's a quick look into the thought process that I have formed from reading forums here and on other sites on the internet.
Firstly, I am looking for a weekend driver not a daily driver. I wanted to stay with the look of the original 911 while benefiting from improvements that have been made in terms of creature comforts. Even if re-sale value is an issue, I do not want to own a car without at least a sunroof, so the sunroof delete is not an option that I am interested in. Always loved the Targa look and felt that it was an upgrade over a sunroof and extended use over a cab in that I find it is often too cold to enjoy one at higher speeds. From what I have read, 89 marked the beginning of many upgrades to the 911 which resulted in better creature comforts without sacrificing the original looks or great performance. Many suggest getting into the 993 since it was the last of the air cooled but the Targa is not available and the selling prices seem to be $25-$35K for a decent car.....that is just too much for me to spend right now on a weekend warrior. It might be helpful to let you know what I currently have as my current ww...a 73 Datsun 240Z with a 355 V-8 and 5 speed. Not enough room in the stable or wallet to keep it when I do make the move to a Porsche. If from your comments and ideas I decide it is better to wait than jump at a car within this $20k budget, I can definitely live with the Z for now. Ok, now reasons I like this particular Porsche.....Targa, Black with full black leather interior, paint and interior very good condition, nice rims, like new targa top, and records seem to be all in order. Since I plan on driving her only in good weather, the C4 was not needed but I thought that since specs show it to be about the same in performance as the C2, I could benefit from it's added traction and more forgiveness in fast turns. This also might serve as a selling point to my wife that she could drive it without having to hear an hour or so of training from me (although I doubt she would ever want to drive it-not really a car crazy gal). Several of you noted that you were concerned by the fact that it had some bottom end work at the same time as clutch. Apparently, what was done was the clutch and rear main seal along with changing all fluids in front and rear diffs, along with any other items called for on the 90k service list. The current owner is fine with a PPI and the inclusion of the compression/leakdown testing...he feels his car will pass with great ease. I traditionally like the old whale tails but do not like the one on this car. It was there when the current owner bought it and at this point if I bought the car I would leave it or go to a real whale tail from the earlier 911. No one knows why the original tail was eliminated, one of you mentioned that maybe it had rear damage....don't know and it does not show on a carfax (although we know many things don't). Clarification on the CPO.....the local Porsche dealer told me that his PPI is done with the exact same checklist (which he sent me) that is done with a CPO. This list appears to be pretty in-depth and includes going over all the maintenance records of previous owners to make sure things have been done on time. From what I have read, adding the compression/leakdown testing to it should give pretty good piece of mind in regards to the engine condition and possibility that this car is due for the expensive top-end rebuild that some of these earlier 964's suffered from. Your further input would be greatly appreciated. I want to dive in head first but am old enough to know better.......... |
If you want a 964, buy a C2. Seriously man, stay away from the C4s...major bucks if that AWD goes out (and it usually does).
Again, I would seriously consider a 3.2 car (1984-1986) or a 3.2 with a G-50 tranny (87-89). Good targas can be had all day long for not much money. |
PBN: +1 on all the aforementioned good advise. Hunt for a C2 / 3.2 Carrera. Sweet Z.
Steve 73 911T Mfi Coupe, Aubergine |
Sounds like you're in the right place with respect to the Targa question, they are a great open air drive. Quieter and less wind than a Cab but the air, sunshine, engine note, etc. all make it great. You are probably aware that Targa's are a bit heavier and more flexible, so the hard-core amongst us, wont endorse a Targa because of it's slightly compromised performance. I've had my black/black 3.2 Targa for a few years now and consider it a perfect mid-life crisis car, quick, nimble and comfortable for even long trips. I have driven a C4 and although it is more refined in every way, it does lack something (for me). It understeers too much and the inclusion of power steering in the 964 (although excellent), doesn't contribute anything to the traditional experience of 911 driving. I can't speak to the reliability issue, I'll let those with more experience than I, comment on that. Just want to say though, that one thing that turned me on to the 3.2 was the relative simplicity of the car that the newer ones don't have. They are often not the easiest cars to work on (often tight quarters) but with patience a normal, mechanically inclined guy can do most everything. Cheers
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