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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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Clogged fuel injection - diesel
Hello
I am far away now, in Portugal... and my engine is shaking while in idle. If I was not so far away and with little kids, I would not bother you guys with this... but I have seen in answers to other topics that you guys really know cars... my big apology is for asking this on porsche forum - I have not find a forum for Ford. Thank You. - the engine is shaking severely while in idle - the engine was running fine for 5000 miles... I was putting 100 percent waste vegetable oil in itthe whole time (it is quite warm in Portugal)... for the past few days, the performance went down rapidly, to the point that I could not go faster than 30mph... I finally changed the fuel filter and the engine is almost back to its original performance, except: it is shaking badly when in idle. - so, I am suspecting the fuel injector is clogged. - what are the ways to fix it? Can I do it myself, or do I have to find some mechanic (I dont speak portuguese :-() What will need to be replaced/done? - my car is 1991 Ford Transit van 2.5 DIESEL (no turbo, no Di, no common rail) Thank you guys very much for help!! Petr |
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12-19-2010, 11:50 AM
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In maintenance phase
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I think you nailed it on the head with the plugged injector.
I have a bad feeling that the only way to fix it will be to remove and clean your injectors. You may also have gummed up your injection pump. I suspect that you will have the whole system open and carefully cleaned with a strong solvent before you eliminate your whole problem. Your in tank screen/filter around your pump may also be clogged. You'll probably have to clean out everything. However, before you do that, why not try a tank of pump diesel, another new filter, and some good quality diesel injector cleaner. When it comes to cleaning fuel additives, they all claim the world, and it's pretty much impossible to verify any of their claims. Just buy the most expensive stuff you can, and hope for the best. The bio-diesel community here meticulously filters their oil before use. I think the norm is about 3 passes through progressively finer filter papers. They also add some chemicals, but I'm not a bio guy, so I'm not sure exactly what they use. If you're going to keep running bio, I would suggest you install at least one more fuel filter. Best of luck! Dan 2010 VW Jetta sportwagen TDi Last edited by daniel911T; 12-19-2010 at 12:26 PM.. |
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12-19-2010, 12:07 PM
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Posts: 29
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Thank You a lot, Dan!
But how to remove the injectors? Is that something I can do with generic wrenches and pliers? Or, do I need any special equipment? Of course, first I will try the diesel and cleaner. I have the tank full of oil now, so I will have to wait until it gets emptier... I was thinking biodiesel is famous for dissolving all the gunk and dirt, but - I have not seen it at the gas stations around here. Some people recommend to add two liters of gasoline into the oil or diesel / I wonder if that would do any good. If there is any mechanical dirt in the injector... I was thinking it would be great to suck it out of the injector with reverse presure, vacuum it out... but that cannot be achieved, huh? Quote:
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12-19-2010, 12:27 PM
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In maintenance phase
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I don't have any experience on small Ford diesels. I have no idea how hard it is to pull the injectors.
I can tell you that they are usually attached VERY securely to both the engine and the line. They deal with a great amount of pressure. Don't expect them to come easily. If you're serious about this, buy the manual for the vehicle. Bentley is the gold standard, but if you can't afford one, the Haynes manuals are a totally acceptable affordable solution. You should also think about draining the tank, cleaning the bottom out, and running some real diesel. A bit of good clean fuel may take care of your whole problem. Good luck! Dan By the way.... What brings you to the forum? Do you have a 911? You should really start a new thread and introduce yourself. 
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12-19-2010, 03:30 PM
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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THe van is running poorer every minute.... Yes, the books would help... but I dont think I can find them here in the middle of Portuguese countryside...
To clean the fuel tank: how to do that? Too many questions, I know... How did I get into this forum? I was just googlesearching for clogged fuel injectors, and this forum came up, full of very informative suggestions. For gasoline car, but it was still helpful. Have a beautiful day petr |
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12-20-2010, 05:38 AM
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I haven't any experience on Ford diesels either but I have run Toyota's for many years. I had a similar experience about two years ago in one of my trucks. Two things to consider are did you get all the air out of the system when you changed out the filter? And is it cold in Portugal as it seems to be in the rest of Europe right now? Veggie oil is notorious for clogging up fuel systems in cool weather. I had been using 20% bio for a couple of years with no problem but all of a sudden she wouldn't start, I pumped the hand primer (not sure if Ford has one) and managed to get it to idle. After managing to limp back home at 40kph max, I changed the fuel filter but it still wasn't running right. After considering many solutions.... (many expensive) (pump), I replaced all the fuel lines, the filter body, drained and scoured the fuel tank, and cleaned the pick up tube filter in the tank. The pick up tube filter was clogged with a mysterious substance that even resisted brake cleaner rather well. I buttoned her up, and she ran great. I can only assume it was caused by a bad batch of Bio. Every oil used in bio behaves differently at different temperatures, and at temperature x the oil will start to turn into a mass instead of a viscous liquid. I'd maybe try some of those solutions, but I would consider draining your tank and filling with real diesel in an attempt to dilute what you have in the system. Most of the people on this site are Americans and Canadians with a small few others scattered all over the world. The Ford transit, I believe, is a vehicle that hasn't been sold here, so vehicle specific questions may not be able to be answered. I'm thinking that you may have to get someone "back home" to mail you a manual if there is nothing available locally. Cheers
Last edited by Drisump; 12-20-2010 at 06:11 AM.. Reason: spelling |
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12-20-2010, 05:52 AM
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Usually there is an inspection panel within the interior of the truck above the fuel tank, you remove it and you see the top of the tank, and it (usually) has a removable panel to access the inside of the tank. You need to have as much storage (jerry cans) available to empty the tank as much as possible by siphoning. There will still be some fuel left so you have to find a way to remove that as well by sopping up with rags or or pulling it the drain plug, ...etc. In my truck, I could get my arm in to clean thoroughly, and definitely, clean the pick up tube. The up side is there are many more unpleasant places to be having these problems....not that problems of this kind are ever FUN. Good luck
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12-20-2010, 06:33 AM
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Hartford CT
Posts: 14
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When my Mercedes began to run rough because of clogged injectors - I used a product called DieselKleen. It was a cleaning agent that you just added to the fuel. I suggest you find an auto parts store or diesel repair shop and search out a similar product. As an additive it should smooth out the idle. Also - if it were me - I'd be looking for an additive that was an actual organic solvent rather than a detergent type cleaner. As an active ingredient in the mixture - a chemical ending in -zene is usually the tip off to an organic solvent
Good Luck |
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12-20-2010, 06:53 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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\THANK You guys so much for answers!!
The air in the system: that is true, I did not considered that... on the other hand, first time I took out the fuel filter, I put it back EMPTY - and except for a long time until the engine started, there was no problem with performance after that. That was several thousand miles ago, I was just checking how to change the filter. So, perhaps this car manages to get rid of the air somehow. by the way: how would I get rid of the air if that WAS the problem? It is not cold here now - very warm, in the 70s :-) Biofuel - is rather different than pure oil. It dissolves nicely all the gunk in the tank and everywhere - and the gunk ends up in the fuel system. That is probably what happened to You. Filter change is often sufficient. yes, ford transit was not sold in the USA... only a more powerful, more fuel hungry model, with automatic transmission Thank You so much for the tips on how to clean the tank - it will be very handy if I will have to resort to it. I had no idea it is accessible like that. My situation now: I met a guy who is not a mechanic but has experience: he listened to the engine and said that it is running well, and definitely on all cylinders. Hurrah! Yes, the engine is shaking a lot in neutral... The transmission/engine block sits on three supports... the one on the bottom has the rubber partly broken. He does not know whether it is broken because of the shaking, or whether it is shaking because of the broken rubber. Nevertheless, I have driven the car today for longer distance... and when the engine is really warm, the shaking is minimal. So, I guess not enough fuel is getting to the engine when on idle and so it is shaking? I would guess some thick oil deposits somewhere on the way, or the air or something... I will drive it some more and know more... and when the tank will be emptier, I will put some diesel and cleaners into it and see if the problem gets better. I think there might be some thicker oil even in the tank - about a week ago, I put some warm oil into the tank... and even after some driving, the top half of the tank got warm, but the bottom one did not... Thank you guys so much again. I will keep you posted. From the warm and very windy and rainy weather Petr |
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12-22-2010, 03:57 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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One thing I dont understand fully, is all the things the DIESEL is different from gas system. In most handbooks, they explain all the things for gas, and I dont know what applies to diesel. Does diesel have an oxygen sensor? Vacuum? Does the presence of air in the fuel system mean as much as in gas system? Etc etc...
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12-22-2010, 04:11 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 5,472
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I don't know that engine, but I know about using vegetable oil as a fuel... I've been running on it for 7+ years and do ~50k/year on it.
Before you get too deep into diagnosing injectors, issues in the fuel tank, etc... you NEED to look for air leaks. This is especially true if you had a plugged fuel filter, because when a filter plugs and the engine is sucking HARD for more fuel, it can pull seals and o-rings in the fuel system and create air leaks. Is there a section of clear fuel line anywhere where you can look for air bubbles? And yes, putting the filter on EMPTY will cause you all kinds of grief... it can take a LONG time for all the air in the flter to get pulled through. On some cars, it can take days. On my Mercedes, when I change the veggie filter it will stumble and run a bit rough for a day or so, unless I use a vacuum pump to purge out any air. ( I installed a fitting to do this after changing filters,) You may also want to consider adding an additional large ~10 micron filter somewhere inline before the truck's standard filter. You may not have access to much down there, but even a water filter & housing should be available. Get a dozen extra filter to bring along with you. Just be VERY careful about potential air leaks, as these were designed to work under pressure, not vacuum:  Using a large heated filter designed for diesel (or even better, vegetable oil) is the way to go, but you may not have that option: Jake's 99 e300d Vegoil Conversion: Mounting Plant Drive components Again... do not start at the injectors, tanks, etc until you are POSITIVE you aren't dealing with air infiltration. That is the #1 cause of rough running with converted cars
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Jake Often wrong, but never in doubt. '81 911 euro SC (bits & pieces) '03 Carrera 4s '97 LX450 / '85 LeCar / '88 Iltis + a whole bunch of boats |
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12-22-2010, 05:18 AM
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Try filling the filter with auto transmission fluid when you change it. I used it on my Mercedes and it made a world of difference. I would also put a quart in the fuel tank, it really cleans things out.
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A nose heavy airplane flies poorly, a tail heavy plane flies once. |
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12-22-2010, 06:14 AM
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Glad things seem to be getting better. I assume you are using waste veggie oil, how are you prepping it before pouring it into the tank? Deep fryer oil has all kinds of suspended particles that can clog various things in the fuel system. Notfarnow sounds like a good resource for you since he has a lot of experience with veggie oil. Diesel systems do not produce vacuum that is used in the fuel or braking systems, they rely on a vacuum pump to provide vacuum to the brake servo. There may be an O2 sensor, depending on how sophisticated an injection system you have. Both my trucks have mechanical injection, so no O2 sensor. Air in a diesel fuel system is far worse than on a gasoline engine and is quite often very difficult to get rid of. There are many different ways to purge air from the system but they are unique to the specific engine. If you think you have an air leak in the fuel system, concentrate on checking the lines between the tank and the fuel pump where the lines are sucking, it's much less likely that the pressure side of the pump would let air in and very unlikely that air would be getting in after the injection pump (assuming there is no funky items on the IP to allow air into the pump itself). Personally, I think you should pursue the fuel issue, obviously you had a problem that appears to be rectified, but at the same time this idling issue showed up....90% sure that these problems are connected and air leaks don't get better. It's possible that you have a persistent pocket of air lodged in some cranny within the IP, but I'm not sure if that is likely, since you seem to be using the truck frequently. You may want to change the filter again and see if that does the trick, when I had my problems, over a few weeks I did everything (starting with the filter) did the fuel tank, started her up but still was not right! I reasoned that if the old fuel was giving me the problems, that it was possible that the new filter was already clogged. I changed it out and it's been running great ever since. Sounds like you're in the right spot, Merry Christmas
Last edited by Drisump; 12-22-2010 at 06:57 AM.. |
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12-22-2010, 06:38 AM
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By the way Notfarnow, do you run veggie oil through a NB winter?
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12-22-2010, 06:48 AM
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Registered
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
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Jake Often wrong, but never in doubt. '81 911 euro SC (bits & pieces) '03 Carrera 4s '97 LX450 / '85 LeCar / '88 Iltis + a whole bunch of boats |
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12-22-2010, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Last edited by Drisump; 12-23-2010 at 03:25 PM.. Reason: correction |
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12-23-2010, 06:23 AM
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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Thanks again for very helpful replies!
When I said last time that things are better, they are not. Even after driving, the engine is shaking wildly when idling and at low speeds, and the car is losing power again. I was thinking? Could it just be that the engine oil needs to be changed? What kind of symptoms would bad oil produce? Sometimes, when I start the engine after even short stop, for a second it seems that the engine has a hard time turning. I mean, it happens only sometimes and perhaps it is because I did not turn the ignition key enough... just a thought. When using veggie oil, the engine oil should be changed about twice as often... the quy I bought it from was very meticulous about car care and said he just changed the oil, so that would only be 5k km and would not need a change... but I really dont want to get stuck with the car and kids somewhere... Air leaks: I did not know they were so important in diesel, since the surplus diesel runs back into the fuel tank. Stupid me... I will recheck whether the filter sits well in its place... other than that, I dont know how to check, there are no clear plastic lines but will try.... some oil is leaking around one of the bolts that holds one of the fuel injectors to the engine (cannot see the leak but the place is very oily). Should i try to tighten this up? I suppose so... - That is a great trick to put the things I need to clean the injectors into the fuel filter! That was, it does not have to get diluted in the fuel tank. Can I also put some injector cleaner in there? Can I use this thing when I am still having veg oil and not diesel in the system? Would it work then? Will it not dissolve the oil? Can I put there the cleaner in bigger concentration, or would it damage something down the line? For those interested in my oil experience: - I do not recommend my approach, but I just did it. No alterations to the fuel system. No pre heating, no extra filtration, no flushing of the oil out of the system before end of a days driving. All these things would be great, but I just needed to start my journey the next day, did not have much money, and wanted to use oil... The oil: in France, I was getting used oil from dechetterie, which are recycling centers. Oil in one big containter, or in plastic bottles. In Portugal, it is even much easier: they have recycling containers on the streets and shopping centers. Either a big container {has the oil nicely separated, but one needs to pump it out on the spot], or a bin where people put 5 liters bottles with oil. Filtration - on one site, I read that if the oil sits long enough, it separates perfectly. a few things floating on top, then good clean oil, then on the bottom dirt and small particles and water and solid oils etc. I do not have time to let the oil sit fr a week, but it surely helps to uses only the top two thirds of the oil, and put the bottom third into another big bottle, let it sit again, and use only the top part. The bottom can be put bak into the recycling container. i wish I was more meticulous about this, I would probably not have my problems. The site says that filtration is not needed then, but I do filter it / lot of work in my field conditions, and I am constantly dirty from oil, but I do it.... I filter it thru dense jeans. I read it filters it to 10 microns / not sure whether it is so, but it does help. The process would be lengthy, but I warm up the oil before filtration - hoping that the water will evaporate, and the filtration is then about ten times faster. merry xmass to those who celebrate it... Petr |
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12-23-2010, 09:52 AM
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Oil change has nothing to do with your symptoms, also the hesitation starting is more likely a starter switch, dirty battery leads or worn out battery....so not related to your main issue. The way I see it you probably are going to have to seek qualified local advice or work. Personally, I think it's either an obstruction in your fuel system, air is continually getting into the system, or one of your pumps (fuel or IP) is on it's way out. Sorry but there's no definitive answer, you or a local mechanic is going to have to start eliminating possible causes. Merry Christmas
Last edited by Drisump; 12-24-2010 at 06:34 AM.. Reason: spelling |
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12-23-2010, 04:04 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 29
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Yes... the car can only drive on highway now, constant speed. Low speeds, idling, hills - it is all very difficult now. Hmm...
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12-24-2010, 04:52 AM
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Your messages don't indicate anything that you've tried or measures that you've taken, so I'm not sure where we're at. From my/our end (10,000km away) we can only point you in a direction that makes sense but It's up to you to give us feed back after doing some leg work. Have you dropped the fuel? Have you changed the filter again? Have you filled with Diesel? Have you tried a fuel system cleaning additive? etc...... You have to start somewhere, the problem may just disappear, but it's not likely. Sorry, but it seemed some "tough love" was necessary.....because from our end, we offer advice (as limited as that may be) but it's up to you to either use, and act on it..... or discard it . I had an old camper van (V4 Ford Transit) traveling through Europe, Turkey, North Africa many, many years ago (did 16K km) and had some mechanical problems along the way in inconvenient locations, so I think I know where you're at.....minimal tools, no facilities, no manual, limited local language skills, extremely limited money (did this at 21).....such fun! Cheers
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12-24-2010, 06:32 AM
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| diesel , ford , fuel injector |
Toy
1979 Porsche 911SC
