Electrical Harness Question... Need help asap!

[Paul491]

Question: Is it easy or difficult or even possible to use electrical harnesses out of a 1983 SC 3.0 and install them directly into a 1984 3.2 Carrera? What would be the initial problems and/or difficulties, now or in the future?

Please feel free to be brutally honest with your opinions, positive or negative, with this idea... I just need to know asap. Thanks.

[rick-l]

CIS <--> DME???? that part would be worthless.

[Joe Bob]

Nope....different models. I have an SC with a 3.6....I have a 3.6 harness.

[Paul491]

Hmmmph, Just as I had feared...

Okay, here's the story: Five years ago, I had a Viper alarm installed at a high-end shop and about a year later the starter began to fail intermittently. At the time, I thought it was a separate issue. As it became more of a problem and happen more often, I had it checked out. In June of last year, I was given the bad news that the alarm installer had totally "butchered" my wiring harnesses! The recommendation was to replace my hacked harnesses with a matching "plug and play" original set supplied by a Porsche dismantler.

When my parts were being ordered, I made it a point to confirm with the shop owner that he was indeed ordering a set from an '84 3.2 Carrera. As the parts came in and work was under way, I again inquired to reconfirm the "new" harness and its origin only to be informed by the shop owner that the new harnesses and fuse box was instead from an '83 SC. MY car is an '84 3.2 Carrera Factory Turbo-Look (M491)! I said WTF? He assured me "not to worry", they were "almost the same". "No problem". Well as of now, after loosing my car in the shop for more than 6 months, I am even more disturbed about that conversation...

Today, the car is STILL sitting, torn apart and NOT running ... I have made it a point to visit the shop every week and politely inquire about my cars progress and am consistently told the same thing: "We're working it..." We're getting there..." To this point, I have been extremely patient all the way back to last July, but after seeing your replies, my worst fears are now confirmed... Evidently, not only was my car first butchered by a Viper alarm hack, but now I may be facing a totally botched, non-matching harness installation? Furthermore, what are the implications for future electrical problems and future re-sale value???

For the past dozen years, this car has been my reliable, faithful & fun daily-driver. I want to fix it!!! Today, I do know one thing: I AM at my wits end... Please advise me. What should I do? What is my next move??? What direction do I go from this point??? What are my rights?

[Alan Lindquist]

Scarry. Sorry for the long hold time on driving the car. I bought a car with a Clifford Alarm. It wasn't working. Over 5 years I've continued to cut pieces out. I "think" I've got it all, but there may still be a few pieces left. It's unnerving to remove wiring that may or may not handle the ignition system.

The "Club" isn't fool-proof, but is doesn't mess with your platform. Long live the "club."

[KNS]

Has he started to install the 83 harness? Many alarm system will cut into the positive battery cable (mine has been butchered also, actually the wiring running alongside the positve). That alone is not that expensive or super difficult to replace. Are we talking the chassis harness (up through the trunk, gauges,etc) or the engine harness? If it were mine I would tell him to stop work right now, pay for whatever he has completed and find an 84 harness and a new shop. There should be plenty of competent shops in the San Diego area.

[Paul491]

Kurt, thanks for your feedback,
1. Yes - he started with the installation about six months ago. During that time, has since discovered that the "new" '83 fuse box doesn't work and has re-wired the original '84's back in with the '83 coded wires.
2. Yes - we ARE talking the chassis harness (up through the trunk, gauges, etc) I'm not sure about the engine harness, I'll ask him during my weekly visit tomorrow...
3. I am pretty dismayed... Fact: he accepted the incorrect '83 harness, started and continued the work assuring me the whole time "all is well". Now, I am involved in what appears to be a total nightmare. All the "work" he has completed has really screwed up my car. The color codes, I am quite sure are all different, thus not matching anything Porsche factory ever did. There will be no schematics for future reference or future work. At this point, it will now be way more difficult and expensive to fix my car than had he never started with the incorrect harness. The last time I checked, it appears all my original wiring is out of the car as well as all my instruments...
4. At this time, I really feel he OWES me for all the damage he has created by removing my original harnesses and replacing them with an incorrect set from an '83. I can only begin to imagine the increased difficulties and added expense that will be incurred as a new shop tries to figure out how and what will be required to put my car back to ORIGINAL. Not to mention the cost of another wiring harness, insurance primiums already paid for over a half of years car insurance, and the major inconvenience of making due with one car for my wife and myself. I work full time, leaving her stranded every day at home (definately creating a volatile situation to deal with ...)

[KNS]

You should have never had him start on the project with the 83 harness, you are now in the unenviable position of having a hacked-up harness with only *him* as your electronic go-to. Is he going to write up a wiring diagram for you? There are some tough decisions to be made: have him stop right now and find someone else to sort it out ($$) or let him continue... Sorry man.
If you ever go to sell it, you are obliged to tell the potential new owner of the wiring mess.

[Craig]

If it were mine I would tell him to stop work right now, pay for whatever he has completed and find an 84 harness and a new shop. There should be plenty of competent shops in the San Diego area.

+1

I would get it away from him ASAP.

Craig

[Paul491]

Kurt,
I initially questioned and objected to the non-84 harness. Hey, who's the professional here? He, the professional, personally assured me "it will be just fine". Was I, the customer, supposed to tell him, the professional, I knew more than he? As the old saying goes: Hindsight is always 20-20... At this point the only way I would let him continue is to get the CORRECT harness, then hope he could figure out "how it was". Any way you slice it, it's not good. (Hey, is this like being "date raped"???)

Craig,
Believe me I wish I could just drive off into the sunset... or better yet, maybe take a trip in the good 'ol time machine back to the point where I, the unknowing, could have demanded the correct '84 harness and told the professional shop owner he didn't know “Jack”? I hope you fellas can be kind enough to give me enough ammo to deal with this guy. Is there any way to take him to small claims court?

Joe Bob,
Believe me, I'm the last guy who wants to pay for someone else's professional education. Evidently, he thought the square peg was round enough to pound in until he realized it just wasn’t working... On the other hand, I went to a professional independent Porsche repair shop seeking to have my car professionally repaired NOT further damaged. Look, I’m just a working-class, blue-collar guy. Am I actually liable as an unknowing customer following the advice of a professional Porsche mechanic to be charged for bad or unprofessional work including wrong/incorrect parts?
Looking forward to your thoughts and ideas.
Thanks.


Herman, enjoying happer days last year at Dana Point with the R Gruppe & 356 crowd...

[brads911sc]

If it were me?

I would have a flat bed show up to his shop today.

Id push it into my garage... and Id get the correct harness (DC Auto, LA Dismantlers, etc)... Id then talk to a few pros that come recommended on this board...

If I didnt have the time, Id have it towed to professional. If I had time, Id buy a bentley and do it myself. Its tedious but not difficult work.

Id submit the entire bill to old shop and have my attorney send a follow up letter.

Sorry for your pain. Good luck.

[Craig]

Whoa, nice car! It is shame that it hasn't been on the road the last 6 months.

I sort of agee with Brad, show up with a flat bed and get it out of there first.
The longer he has it, the harder it is going to be to undo what he has done.
Myself, I would spring for a new harness rather than a used, just my
preference.

I do agee with your statement that he owes you for all the cost to undo what he has done. But, he will be adamant about you paying him for the time he has worked on it. The end result will probably be somewhere in the middle.

I hope an attorney chimes in here and helps with some advice.

This is why you will also need an attorney. It would be even better if you could show up with one when you get the car. THere will be a hassle when you try to take it, make no mistake.

But first, I would get the car. He obviously is having problems doing the work, or he would have had it done by now. The payments can be worked out later.

Craig

[Flat6pac]

I have a Carrera harness available..
Bruce

[Paul491]

Okay guys, "Herman’s" saga continues...

I arrived at the shop this morning early on Friday at 0700 packing a dozen donuts. I figured it would be a good idea to brake a little bread before I broke the news of "plan B". This deed led into a nice soft-shoe to warm things up a bit, then I let him know without malice and pretty directly "enough was enough..." He initially showed some serious resistance for my idea of pulling the plug on the project as he cautiously tried to assure me it would be "done in just a couple more days". After kindly reminding him I had been listening to this very promise for almost seven months caused him to reflect enough for my reasoning to convince him to do the right thing. He then turned to me and said "You owe me nothing", apologized and even offered to arrange for towing at his expense. In this situation, he was truly a professional.

In retrospect, I believe the main mistake was accepting the incorrect harness at all levels: 1st,, the shop owner from the supplier, 2nd, the tech from the owner and lastly, for me not objecting to the whole mess to begin with. The two biggest errors? His error on the shop side and mine for not insisting on the CORRECT '84 year. I did know better the time, but somewhat skeptically accepted his assurances that the two harnesses were essentially the same. My lesson/education for not insisting on what I really new was best, has and will cause much wasted time, energy and inconvenience. So, after a nice handshake, I made the call, the flatbed rolled up, Herman was loaded up, delivered to my home and now sits outside my window. Extraction Mission - accomplished!

Next sep - I really need to find a an experienced 1984 3.2 Carrera WIRING GURU as close to North San Diego County as possible. Someone who has the knowledge and can proficiently remove the incorrectly installed 1983 P/N 911 612002-14 and replace it with a new correct P/N 911 612 002-15. Now the qualifier; if he indeed knows the differences between the two, can install 'em in his sleep, and has done it on numerous occasions, he's my guy. Also, the tech who was given the wrong stuff and ordered to install it, will be more happy help and has offered to answer any questions pertaining to the work done so far.

Well, so far so good. I really do like the idea of installing a new factory wiring harness. I checked today at Hoehn Porsche Parts Dept. and discovered that of the two harnesses I need, P/N 911 612 002-15 is still available in Germany. The other P/N 911 612 003-01 is No Longer Available... bummer Anyone have these particular NOS harnesses out there? Now that would be really nice...

Please feel free to offer any suggestions.

Cheers!

[Laneco]

Well, I really hope your problem isn't as deep as it appeared to the mechanic. Yes, the chassis harnesses are different, not hugely so but different. It is the engine harness that is WILDLY different. They are seperate harnesses. If the engine harness is sound, wiring a 3.2 into a 3.0 car (or in your case, harness) is a grand total of about 7 wires. Maybe it's a few more, I can't remember off the top of my head, but it is REALLY not hard at all.

The bigger problem is what is done or undone with the 3.0 harness. If that harness is wholly installed, e.g. wired to the lights, wired to the dash, wired to the doors, I would suggest leaving it in and wiring the 3.2 engine harness in. What are you missing at that point, footwell blower motors? Now if that harness is only partially installed, that's going to involve more work.

I'm not really trying to steer you one way or another, just offering up another idea. If you find a knowledgeable person, it could really prove alot easier to just finish up the 3.0 install and wire the 3.2 engine harness into that. Keep your mind open to that alternative idea, it could save you money, put your car on the road fast and will still prove to be very workmanlike.

angela

[Paul491]

angela,

Thanks for the good thought. From discussions with the tech, it appears the engine harness was not touched. I believe that the '83 harness was installed to and from the fuse box and under dash. He assured me the under dash is absolutely correct. He has powered up. Everything checked out good except: Headlights, signals and a ground problem with the fuel pump. I guess that is the main stumper.

Your idea has some very good merits. By keeping the front harness as an '83 at least would be somewhat logical under the circumstances... It would definitely make more sense at sale or repair time. The trick will be to locate a highly experienced tech that can sort all this out and put it back to some type of factory semblance. Now to find the closest one to Oceanside, CA...

Any suggestions?

[Laneco]

Bear in mind that if the 3.2 engine harness hasn't been integrated into the 3.0 wiring, the fuel pump won't run. Got to have the DME (under the seat engine computer) powered or fuel pump is a no-go. Might even have to be actually running too, don't recall for certain.

Just in case it might help you, I thought I would include the instructions I used to wire the 3.2 engine into a 3.0 car. This guy did a nice job on the instructions - even I could follow them - LOL! This is for a 2.7 car, but it was essentially identical for the 3.0 car. The under-dash portion and the fuse-box portion are very easy. Might save you some $$$ to bring that to whomever does the repair.

Modification

OH and sorry, don't know anybody near Oceanside to help you. But SOMEONE here knows someone in/near Oceanside!

angela

[Paul491]

Thanks for all the good advise. I really appreciate the support and encouragement.

I have started a new thread in the hope of finding a good electrician that can finish the work here in So. Cal.

Needed: '83/'84 Wiring Harness Guru in So Cal

Please make any suggestions or techs you feel may be willing to will help.

Thanks.

[group911@aol.co]

Paul
May have missed it above but exactly what part of the harness is in question?
If it doesn't involve the section through the tunnel, I'm not sure there is a big difference between 84 and 83.
The dash with the exception of the tach is essentially the same. The under dash and console are the same as well as the lights, fuel pump wiring etc.
On the Motronic, there is a branch that supplies the power to the DME that the SC doesn't have but that's pretty minor. Doesn't seem it would be that hard to overcome.
The biggest thing is finding somebody that really knows how to read and use the diagrams.
Good luck.

[Paul491]

After an extended conversation with the tech who was assigned the task of installation (after the shop owner had already removed the harnesses), and explaining to him exactly what was going on with my car before the shop owner said he would fix it, the tech felt all that was needed at that time was to simply replace the ignition side of the harness. By the time he was assigned the project, everything with the exception of the engine harness had been removed. He proceeded as he was told unaware of the original starter/ignition issues and replaced the whole front with the '83 3.0 harnesses.

As the car sits, the main problem seems to be a grounding issue with the power connection to the fuel pump. The power feed to the fuel pump appears to be grounded, but oddly enough only has .004 resistance witch would indicate no body-to-wire grounding. This is where the tech was stuck on the project when I pulled the plug.

The tech, himself, is straight-up and a pretty knowledgeable guy. He was put on the job after the shop owner pulled the original harnesses. He told me that had he known the whole situation, he would have only replaced the starter circuit NOT the whole front and under dash. He also found that the '83 fuse box did not match and reinstalled my '84 fuse box with the new wiring.

I had a conversation with the tech today and he is more than willing to help us any way he can. So if you or anyone else has some good ideas to get me back on the road, let's hear 'em!

Thanks