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Timing a 2.4 MFI T

I have recently replaced the points in my 72 T/S and now I think I need to time it as the idle has gone up from around 900 to 1200 RPM. All I did was remove the old points in replace with a new Bosch set from our host.

When I look at the front pulley, It seems to have 4 marks on it when I thought it would only have 2 (1 for TDC and 1 for 5 deg BTDC). Can someone shed some light on these marks?

Also, my manual says to check the timing at 6000 RPM with the vacuum hose off the advance. Then it proceeds to say that for some models it's checked with the hose on. Any clues? The car is an American delivery model.

Thanks in advance.
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1972 911T/S MFI Survivor
Old 02-07-2011, 01:06 PM
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The picture of the pulley below is for an early MFI engine, not the same as your 72 T w/MFI. It's missing the 5 degree ATDC mark. Did you set the dwell? Should be 38 degrees + - 3 for the Bosch. Timing should be set with a warm engine, vacuum line connected, at idle should be set to 5 degrees ATDC. The mark on the pulley for 5 degrees is just to the left of the TDC mark. After that, check the max timing at 6000 RPM, should be 35 degrees @ 6000 RPM.

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Old 02-07-2011, 01:48 PM
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Thank you for your reply. Is the 6000 rpm done with the hose on or off? And is Z1 TDC?
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David

1972 911T/S MFI Survivor
Old 02-07-2011, 01:58 PM
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Yes Z1 is TDC. None of my engines have the vac unit on the distributor but I'm fairly sure you keep the hose connected on your model engine. I pulled my old 72 owners manual and states keep the hose connected for the idle timing check, says nothing about the hose for the 6000 RPM check.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:27 PM
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David, did you set the proper points gap when you installed the new ones?
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Old 02-07-2011, 03:25 PM
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Yes and no. I spent quite a bit of time with a feeler gauge getting as close to 014 as possible. I am borrowing a dwell meter and a timing light tonight.

I found another thread that described my pulley exactly as it appears. There are two "pair" of marks but the other set are for timing the MFI pump.
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:27 PM
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The 6000rpm timing is with the hose OFF.
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1973 911S (since new) RS MFI specs
1991 C2 Turbo
Old 02-07-2011, 05:46 PM
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Here is Mark’s image with some annotation.



Firing order 1-6-2-4-3-5.

Best,
Grady
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 356RS View Post
The picture of the pulley below is for an early MFI engine, not the same as your 72 T w/MFI. It's missing the 5 degree ATDC mark. Did you set the dwell? Should be 38 degrees + - 3 for the Bosch. Timing should be set with a warm engine, vacuum line connected, at idle should be set to 5 degrees ATDC. The mark on the pulley for 5 degrees is just to the left of the TDC mark. After that, check the max timing at 6000 RPM, should be 35 degrees @ 6000 RPM.

Mark ,

Is this the same timing for a 2.7 MFI?
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:53 PM
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In my 73's Owner's Manual it states that timing (at 6000)with vacuum line disconected should be 32 to 38 degs. That's after setting idle at 5 deg ATDC. I have found that if I set idle at 5 deg ATDC the 6000 advance will only be around 33/34 deg. Setting it there gives me a litttle hesitation off idle.

After playing around I settled on timing the 6000 advance to just under 36 deg which makes idle at 2 1/2 deg ATDC. This eliminated hesitation off idle.

I ofter wonder why the Owner's Manual states such a wide range of advance(32 to 38)?
Old 02-08-2011, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEpperson View Post
I have recently replaced the points in my 72 T/S and now I think I need to time it as the idle has gone up from around 900 to 1200 RPM. All I did was remove the old points in replace with a new Bosch set from our host.

When I look at the front pulley, It seems to have 4 marks on it when I thought it would only have 2 (1 for TDC and 1 for 5 deg BTDC). Can someone shed some light on these marks?

Also, my manual says to check the timing at 6000 RPM with the vacuum hose off the advance. Then it proceeds to say that for some models it's checked with the hose on. Any clues? The car is an American delivery model.

Thanks in advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSNMOE View Post
In my 73's Owner's Manual it states that timing (at 6000)with vacuum line disconected should be 32 to 38 degs. That's after setting idle at 5 deg ATDC. I have found that if I set idle at 5 deg ATDC the 6000 advance will only be around 33/34 deg. Setting it there gives me a litttle hesitation off idle.

After playing around I settled on timing the 6000 advance to just under 36 deg which makes idle at 2 1/2 deg ATDC. This eliminated hesitation off idle.

I ofter wonder why the Owner's Manual states such a wide range of advance(32 to 38)?

David,

This is due to emissions regulations.

The (unstated) goal of the instructions is to maintain reduced emissions, not run best.

Every distributor has some mechanical variation.
If you set the idle (900 rpm) timing at the specified 5° ATDC, there is a wide range of acceptable timing at 6000 rpm.

There are three ways to approach the setting of the timing:
You can set it at idle and let the 6000 rpm timing fall where it may (within the acceptable range).
You can set the timing at 6000 rpm for performance or detonation safety and let the idle fall where it may.
Or … you can compromise as Pelican BSNMOE has done to find the best within the two extremes.

If you set the idle timing as specified and the timing at 6000 rpm is not within the specified range, the usual cause is mechanical wear in the distributor.
Before you jump into a ‘rebuild’, clean and lube the distributor, install new points and run on a distributor machine.
Record the advance curve numbers and compare to the Factory specifications.
There are situations where an out-of-spec distributor curve is more desirable.

The maximum advance at 6000 rpm is limited by detonation.
This is fuel octane rating dependent.
I would be very cautious to go above 35° total advance at 6000 rpm.
With poor fuel, 35° may be too high.


Here is the distributor curve Factory specs:


© Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche K.G.
From Factory Workshop Manual, Vol. VI, p. 9.3-2/3, Supp. XXVIII, 1973.

Note that these specs are for advance and rpm at the distributor.
At the engine, the numbers are double.

EDIT
To add more specs.

Testing on a distributor machine:

Distributor - - - Distributor
Degrees - - @ - - shaft
Advance - - - - - rpm

1° @ 600 – 750 rpm
7° @ 900 – 1050 rpm
9° @ 1000 – 1650 rpm
12° @ 1950 – 2550 rpm
14° @ 2550 – 3050 rpm

At distributor 3500 rpm, distributor advance must be between 14.3° and 15.7°.

When investigating points bounce, spec is ±1° at 300 rpm and ±2° at 3500 rpm distributor.

Each peak on the points cam must at 60° ±1°.

Ideally you want NO points bounce and each spark at exactly 60° intervals.



Before you get too carried away with your distributor, step back and remember you have MFI.
You can’t touch any part of the engine ’system’ without considering the entire ‘system’.
How recently have you done an extended CMA?


Careful does it!



Let’s get your distributor ‘exactly correct’ or at least know where it is.

Set your engine to TDC #1 compression (Z1 and rotor pointing to #1).
Remove the distributor.
Run it on an old Sun Electric distributor machine.
Record the existing curve.

This is a perfect opportunity to clean and lube everything.
This also lets you ‘run in’ the points and set the dwell while operating.
(Most Dewll Meters require you add an ignition capacitor.)
You will be able to see any timing variations from wear.
You can confirm the proper operation of the vacuum advance.

Here are the Factory specs for the vacuum advance:


© Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche K.G.
From Factory Workshop Manual, Vol. VI, p. 9.3-2/4, Supp. XXVIII, 1973.

Porsche specifies two ‘test points’ at 300 rpm distributor:
1° advance at 85 – 110 Torr (3.3 -4.3 in. Hg.)
4° advance at 100 – 125 Torr (3.9 – 4.9 in. Hg.)

Note that more vacuum = less advance.
This is very desirable for idle stabilization.

If you are going to ‘tinker’ with your distributor, there are some ‘improvements’ with idle, off-idle and below idle (when starting off).


For this discussion, please post a summary of your engine modifications (T/S), settings and measurements.

Best,
Grady
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Last edited by Grady Clay; 02-08-2011 at 06:29 AM.. Reason: Typo and add content.
Old 02-08-2011, 05:02 AM
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grady Clay View Post
Here is Mark’s image with some annotation.



Firing order 1-6-2-4-3-5.

Best,
Grady
Grady,
You are absolutely amazing! Thanks for more great info.

You always give the comprehensive answer, clearly.

You've helped me out a lot with other problems, and this kind of thing is SO valuable to the community.

THANKS AGAIN!

Dan
Old 02-08-2011, 06:36 AM
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+ 2 on Grady's comprehensive answers.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:16 AM
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+3 on Grady's answer. I am printing it out and hanging it on my wall!!!
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RGruppe #79 '73 Carrera RS spec 2.7 MFI
00 Saab 95 Aero wagon stick
01 Saab 95 Aero wagon auto
03 Boxster
90 Chevy PU Prerunner....1990
Old 02-08-2011, 07:37 AM
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Wow - Grady - thank you so much.

Having never removed a distributor, I am a bit reluctant to do so. Didn't someone say a man's got to know his limitations... I also do not have access to a distributor machine.

As for specs, I am still running the original (probably now sloppy) MFI of r a T, with approx 5000 miles since rebuild. At that time the 2.2 T iron cylinders were replaced with used S buckets, E cams, ported heads and new 9:1 JE pistons. The car is very driveable with this setup, with lots of low and mid range power. I have been warned that it could run a little lean in higher RPM's, but to be honest, I really don't push it that often - the engine very seldom sees 6000 RPM. (Heck, the car is 40 years old). Some day if I have money to burn I will have to TB's rebuilt and the space cam changed, but for now I just want to get it back the way it was.

I have no idea how old the points were that I changed, but the follower was just about completely gone and I could find no lube on the shaft. The car had become very undriveable and when I open the distributor I could not see the points opening. I replaced with new Bosch, gapped and regapped till I got it as close to .014" as I could, buttoned it up and it runs fantastic. The idle however has grown by 300 RPM and I know I am supposed to time it - hence the questions.
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1972 911T/S MFI Survivor
Old 02-08-2011, 09:01 AM
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David,
When I finally took my car out of service prior to new longblock, I found that my points were so worn that the stationary face was a donut! The outer face had worn a hole completely through! Needless to say, it didn't run well at all.

The best thing I've done for my car was the installation of a pertronix. The dwell is constant, the gap is constant, and timing becomes much easier to set. It is maintenance free. It was less than $100 from our host, and works like a champ. If you want to stop fooling around with points forever, install one of those puppies.

BTW, if you do feel the need to take out your distributor, it really isn't that scary at all. Really, it's only one nut, and pull it straight out. Super easy.

Good luck!
Dan
Old 02-08-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAEpperson View Post
Having never removed a distributor, I am a bit reluctant to do so. Didn't someone say a man's got to know his limitations... I also do not have access to a distributor machine.
No time like the present.

Where in So. Cal. Are you?
Google “Auto Electric” and confirm a local shop with a ‘Sun Electric’ distributor machine.
This is ‘old school’ automotive workshop stuff.



Take the specs in this thread and discuss with your new distributor tech.



Once you have confirmed a source to service the distributor – on to removing the distributor from the engine.
It is easy.
It is also easy to get it back in and functioning correctly.
Simple care is in order.

Refering to Waynes '101' and 'Engines' books will help considerably.


Using a timing light, measure the timing at idle, each 500 rpm interval to 6000 rpm.
You can either use an adjustable timing light or mark the pulley with ink markers.
Record your measurements.



Find your best wrench for turning the engine pulley bolt.
A proper length 19 mm socket and ½” ratchet should work.

Only turn ClockWise (CW).
Practice turning the engine a few revolutions.
Go slowly so the compression leaks past the rings.
(This is much easier with the sparkplugs removed.)

Find where the ‘Z1’ mark on the pulley lines up with the split in the crankcase.
The split should be the same as the line mark on the fan housing.


Next we want to find where it is currently ‘static timed’.
This will make it easy to reinstall and have the timing close.

Take the coil wire out of the center of the cap.
Use a zip-tie or something to hold the bare end terminal of the wire close (but not touching) some metal on the fan housing.
You want to be able to see / hear the spark.
Don’t ever touch the wire with the ignition on. It can knock you across the room.

Remove the distributor cap from the distributor and wedge it back among the wires.
You want free access to the rotor and be able to remove the distributor (later).

With the ignition ON, rotate the engine.
(There will be a spark ‘snap’ every 120° of rotation.)
As you are coming close to Z1, stop when the spark occurs.
Note the position of the fan line on the pulley.
It should be somewhere in the range of 0° to 10° to the right of Z1.
Turn OFF the ignition.
Record the location on the pulley.
Continue rotating CW until Z1 lines up with the fan housing mark.

Note the position of the terminal end of the rotor.
It should be pointing to either the location of #1 or #4 terminal on the cap.

If pointing to #1, confirm there is a line on the distributor body at this point.
If no line, make a permanent (scratch) mark.

If pointing to #4, rotate the engine another 360° to Z1.
Confirm that the rotor is now pointing to the #1 terminal on the cap.

With the engine at Z1 and the rotor pointing to #1, it is now safe to remove the distributor and easily reinstall.

Practice turning the rotor by hand and that it ‘snaps back’ to its original position.
This is the centrifugal advance you are feeling.
It should return to a ‘stop’ and not need to be ‘coaxed’ back.
This is just practice for later.

Take the key out of the ignition and put the transmission in neutral with the parking brake on (and wheel chocks if necessary).
We don’t want to accidentally rotate the engine from its Z1, TDC compression #1 position.


Check that the area around the base of the distributor is relatively clean.
We don’t want some errant piece falling in the engine.

Note the general position of the nut & stud relative to the slot in the distributor casting.
It should be about center.
Remove the M8 nut (13 mm wrench) and washer and put them aside.
We don’t want them falling in the engine.

Remove the black and the black/violet wires from the distributor body.
Pull off the vacuum hose.
Put them aside, out of the way.

Again, note the position of the rotor.
As you pull the distributor out, the rotor will move.
You will need to have the rotor in this new (moved) position when you reinstall.
You may need to rotate the distributor back-&-forth to get it out.

Practice reinstalling the distributor so the rotor ends up in the original position.
Repeat a few times.
See – it is easy.

With the distributor removed, put something in the hole to prevent pieces falling into the engine.
A shop towel will do.

Pull the rotor straight off.
Note the ‘key’ in the rotor and the ‘notch’ in the distributor shaft indexing the rotor.
Leave the rotor with the engine.


Off to see the (distributor) wizard.
The wonderful wizard of (distributor) Oz.



Installation.

Install the rotor on the shaft, engaging the rotor ‘key’ in the shaft ‘notch’.
Make sure the rotor is firmly seated and can’t turn relative to the shaft.

Make sure the bore in the crankcase is clean. Clean the edges also.
Lube the new distributor O-ring (green arrow) with engine oil.


© 2003, Wayne R. Dempsey. From How To Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines, image 9-13 from the accompanying CD.

Reinstall the distributor so the rotor ends up in the original position.
Check the retaining stud is in about the original position in the slot.
Check that the rotor is pointing to the #1 terminal on the cap.


© 2003, Wayne R. Dempsey. From How To Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines, image 9-13 from the accompanying CD.

Reinstall the black and black/violet wires.
Install a new Nyloc nut and washer, loosely (so the distributor still turns).
Turn the ignition ON.
Rotate the engine CW.
(There will be a spark ‘snap’ every 120° of rotation.)
Adjust the position of the distributor so the spark occurs at the same place near Z1 as before.
Remember, it takes two revolutions to get back to Z1 compression #1.
Tighten nut.
Confirm ‘static’ timing.

Turn Ignition OFF.
Confirm rotor is pointing to #1 when at Z1.
Reinstall cap making sure it is properly seated in the locating tab.
Reinstall coil wire.


© 2003, Wayne R. Dempsey. From How To Rebuild & Modify Porsche 911 Engines, image 10-16 from the accompanying CD.

Reconnect the vacuum hose.
Connect timing light.
Start engine and let idle.

At idle, confirm idle timing is close to spec.
Loosen nut and set idle timing.
Tighten nut.

With the engine warm, check timing at 6000 rpm.
Make an ‘executive decision’ where to set the timing within the spec range.
Test drive and report.
Check all wires in place, cap still properly seated, vacuum hose in place and nut tight.

The LAST check is at 6000 again.
You NEVER want too much advance at 6000 rpm.

Common problems are:
Getting distributor a ‘tooth off’. Timing will be off. Simply re-position distributor.
Rotor not fully on so cap won’t seat. Be careful as this can damage the cap and rotor.
Too much lube on points cam. The lube gets on the points. Causes misfire and erratic tach.
Dropping something in the engine. Simple care prevents this. If something happens, be prepared with a magnet on a stick and a ‘grabber’ tool.
Loosing reference to TDC #1 compression. You can find it again with the #1-2-3 intake valve cover off (and other methods).
Don't worry.

Drive & Enjoy.

Best,
Grady

PS: If someone sees an error or an addition, please post and I will add / correct.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:17 PM
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Great step by step Grady....thanks.

I want to give my +1 on the Pertronix........best $100 I have spent on my car!....it is maintenance free and the timing does not vary and you just don't mess with points. If you are afraid of a failure, carry a spare set of points with you.....or even a spare Petrtronix for that matter.

All of this reminds me of a project I have been dragging my heels on.....well I am building brackets and acquiring wiring and stuff for the installation. I have a Daytona-Sensors CD1 to replace my Bosch CDI. Comes with its own coil that is a square transformer type.

Cool thing is that you can set the advance curve with your computer and a USB cable. You would lock the distributor advance and it is all in the CDI box. The CD1 reads RPM and adjusts the advance to the curve you program into it.

I have to find some time to start testing this CD box. It has been sitting on my bench for too many months!!
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RGruppe #79 '73 Carrera RS spec 2.7 MFI
00 Saab 95 Aero wagon stick
01 Saab 95 Aero wagon auto
03 Boxster
90 Chevy PU Prerunner....1990
Old 02-08-2011, 06:30 PM
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Here is a photo of the CD-1




And here is the coil. I just built a special bracket to mount this on the fan housing like the OEM coil. Will post a photo later.

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RGruppe #79 '73 Carrera RS spec 2.7 MFI
00 Saab 95 Aero wagon stick
01 Saab 95 Aero wagon auto
03 Boxster
90 Chevy PU Prerunner....1990
Old 02-08-2011, 06:34 PM
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Here is a sample of an advance curve that can be programmed in. This sample is not 911 specific.

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RGruppe #79 '73 Carrera RS spec 2.7 MFI
00 Saab 95 Aero wagon stick
01 Saab 95 Aero wagon auto
03 Boxster
90 Chevy PU Prerunner....1990
Old 02-08-2011, 06:37 PM
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