Magnecor/+4 report, and ignition wire break-in question.

[Eric Coffey]

Hey all,

First of all, I did some routine maintenance this weekend consisting of plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and brakes. The old (OEM Bosch/Beru replacements) plugs/wires were not very old, still in good shape (checked resistance), and really didn't NEED to be replaced. I just happened to get a good deal on the new stuff, and was curious to see if there was any truth to the "snake oil" claims of the Magnecors and Platinum +4's. Initially, I just installed the plugs and wires with the old cap and rotor. I have to say I did notice a real seat-of-the-pants improvement. Not so much a power increase, but more of a crispness/responsiveness increase. Then with the new cap and rotor, I noticed that the idle was more smooth, and for some reason (maybe I'm crazy), the exhaust note seemed just a bit stronger (the old cap and rotor were the two items that were in the most need of replacement).

OK, now on to my question: I was just wondering if there is a break-in period for ignition wires before they reach optimum performance. I know that for higher-end home audio cables and interconnects, there is a break-in period of anywhere from a week to a month (depending on type/style/brand/etc..) before they "warm up" and reach peak operating performance. I was curious to know if the same theory applied to ignition wires?

[CamB]

..... I gotta say it ...... some people believe there is a break-in period before home audio etc cables sound there best.

I'm not so sure.

Speakers are a different matter, I believe that.

[jkeyzer]

As an electrical engineering graduate I can say my kneejerk reaction is that "break-in" for cable is a bunch of BS. It would be very hard for someone to convince me otherwise. Nothing magical happens to the wire as it is used. A few atoms might get bumped around or some oxides formed over long periods of time, but certainly nothing that is noticable on a macroscopic scale!

It would be particularly difficult to convince me that a wire could ever get BETTER at performing it's job over time.

[Eric Coffey]

Well all you have to do is run an internet search for "speaker cable wire break in period" and check the results. I think the break-in period (at least on the home audio stuff) has more to do with the dielectric/shielding. I am certainly no engineer, but there is a substantial niche/cottage industry which does include acoustical, mechanical, and electrical engineers that do think that there is some validity to the matter.


Here is an excerpt from one of the more popular cable companies giving their explanation:

"All cables require a break-in period - even so-called "lampcord" cables that are often supplied with speakers. "Break in" is a misnomer. What's really happening is that the insulation (or dielectric to give it its proper name) is being "formed". This "forming" is caused by the dielectric absorbing energy from the conductor when a signal is present (i.e. when current is flowing). Every cable requires something to separate the negative conductors from the positive conductors - a dielectric. However, because the dielectric is in direct contact with the conductor, it will interact with the conductor whenever a current flows, absorbing energy from the conductor. What the dielectric does with that energy once absorbed depends upon its quality. PVC releases the energy back into the conductor a split second later, causing a kind of "smearing" of the signal. In contrast, Teflon absorbs significantly less energy in the first place, turns most of the energy into heat, and whatever energy remains is released back into the conductor virtually instantaneously. This causes significantly less damage to the signal which is why - all things being equal - a cable with Teflon insulation will sound better than the same cable using a lesser dielectric. This absorption of energy causes the molecules in the dielectric to be rearranged from a random order into a uniform order. Once the molecules are fully rearranged, the cable is said to be "broken in". The dielectric will now absorb less energy from the conductor, causing less harm, and improving performance."

[CamB]

Yeah but I don't understand any of that

I am a Philistine (sp?). I wired up my (other) car stereo using a quality, name brand (and fairly pricey) RCA cable from head unit down car to crossover.

Then I wired the crossover to the amps using cables I made myself. From RCA connectors and cat-5 cable. The stuff used for computer networks .

I figured it was twisted pair and all the rage - and 4 twisted pairs at that, so I separated out the pairs and did it that way.

Couldn't hear a thing (as in a problem). Total cost? Not worth counting.

I am very happy to assume that the problem is with my ears

[dad911]

When I bought my AV system, the salesman also tried to convince me that audio cable had a 'direction' in addition to polarity. The electrons will flow better in the same direction as the printing/lettering on the cable.

I'll bet I can market high end AV Cool Collars that will snap over the 24K Gold connectors!

[Superman]

I also don't believe it.

I do believe that a new cap and rotor can be expected to improve performance and I'd bet that just about any car out there would see a noticeable improvement if the cap and rotor were changed. My manuals says to replace after 12k miles, I believe. By that time, those parts are DONE and need replacing.

As for platinum plugs....and multi-electrode plugs....I think they improve performance the same way a good hand washing does. Seems to add about 2-3 hp. 3-4 hp if it is also waxed.

[Early_S_Man]

Eric,

Your quote is TOTAL GIBBERISH, BS ... written by an ad-writer for the entertainment/conning of ill-informed, non-technically oriented consumers!!!

Electrolytic capacitors need to be 'formed' ... plastic-insulated varieties such as Mylar, polystyrene, or wax paper DO NOT, and likewise with the dielectric in cables, be they coax, twinax, triax, or 'zip' cord ... or Teflon-insulated!!!

[Jorgeman]

PURE UNADULTERATED SNAKE-OIL!! RANKS RIGHT ALONG WITH THE GIZMOS THAT ARE FASTENED TO THE GAS LINE TO "ALIGN THE MOLECULES"!!

P.T.Barnum nailed it a hundred or so years ago with his "There's a sucker born every minute" and it continues to support many an Ad Writer to this day!
My Bose Speaker System came with zip cord for connecting to the system. I've gotta' believe that if you or I could hear the difference between zip cord and monster wire, they'd have supplied it, or at least, recommended it!


george 86T

[jwetering]

Having done a three hour road trip home from Superman's place in the company of Mr Doug Zielke, I can tell you that I would consider his opinion in this matter as unrefutable FACT...

Not only is Doug a crack LX engineer, he is also the most serious audiophile I have ever met..I mean he's got some kind of disease or something....

So c'mon Doug...weigh in with your 2 cents on the running in of speaker wire.

[Eric Coffey]

Geeeez Ok, I get the point (time for some new Nomex) Anywho, I am not surprised by the replies though, as it does SOUND like a pretty ridiculous concept, but I have heard of stranger things labeled as fact. What amazes me is that some of these "wonder cables" are fetching over $1000 for an 8ft. pair! Also, I too would be interested in what Doug Z has to say if he is a total audio guru (that is, if he can stand the heat in here!)


Superman-

I just wanted to clear up that although MINOR, I did notice an improvement before I installed the new cap and rotor (with just new plugs and wires). That I can confirm without any hesitation.

[Doug Zielke]

Thanks a *bunch* Jasper!!
This board already has it's fair share of expurts.
Audio wire products are a far cry from ignition wire, but here's my take......

Audio wiring in speaker systems, and as used in equipment manufacture itself, is a very contentious subject amongst audio professionals and enthusiasts.

As I've been involved with the audiophile hobby for over 30 years, I've heard of many claims for this and that product. And I've tried a lot of them. Yes, there is snake oil in the audio world as there is in the automotive one.

Almost everyone has an opinion regarding wire and the effect it has on the sound of (electronically) reproduced music.
I'm not afraid to state that different wires do have an effect on what a listener may hear. However, there are so many variables (besides the type or construction of audio wire) that may influence sound, the issue often becomes clouded beyond any sense.

The actual materials in an audio cable, (insulation, metallic components) have a huge bearing on sound quality.
I contend certain high-end cables do have "forming" or break-in periods. I've heard it happen with my own (good) ears. Take it or leave it. The truth is in the reproduced music. "Tin ears" need not apply!
To compare the complex designs of some audio cables to other generic wires (lamp cord etc.) is a gross simplification of the subject.


Suffice to say that there have been many, many, double blind sound tests performed by independent testers, that prove wire can make an audible difference. Electrical and acoustical measurements, made with well calibrated instruments, also confirm what listeners are hearing with their own ears.

As this is considerably off topic, I'll conclude by saying there are some audio wire/cable products that would not be any better than lamp cord, but cost considerably more.
But on the other hand, if I played you some recorded music on my personal system, and then covertly replaced my chosen wires with lamp cord, you'd be amazed at the difference.
Unless, you were stone deaf, that is.

[72SMFI]

OK! I thought i was hearing BS but maybee I learned somthing today.. Cheers!!!

[jkeyzer]

I always wondered the following...

If audiophiles care so much about the quality of their cables and are willing to pay top dollar for what they claim are subtle (and very subjective) improvements in audio quality, then why does the audio industry use some of the worst connectors possible for cable interconnects?

Anything about dielectric changes etc. is thrown out the window when you are using RCA connectors and those little gold plated pointy pins to connect your amplifiers and speakers.

[bell]

i wasn't going to post in this thread but i feel i have something to contribute.
so-called "high end wires" for home audio are built in many different ways, i've been in profesional audio for 11 years and this is my experience.
every wire has a different resistant value which in turn will change the way and amplifier transfers the signal (remember audio signals from your amp is a/c) if you listen and compare a set of high resistant wires to a lower resistant wire you may or may not hear a difference. the only advantage to buying expensive cables is to ensure that the cables are impedance matched (equal resistance) but be weary, i purchased a set of $200.00 kimbercable when i bought my martin logans for my listening room and these cables had an impedance difference of 5%. having a trained ear is what pointed me to check the resistance of the cable, and that's what it was. i then built my own shielded cables at a cost of about $60.00 (most of that being connectors) and i now have a matched set of cables (less than .05%). the only reason i did this is i'm a firm believer in "everything is only as strong as your weakest link".
and as a small note, some amp/speaker combos will perform better with different types of cables, so there is NO best.
the only real comparison you can make between home audio and ignition wires is that thay both carry some form of current.
when dealing with ignition systems in cars the current traveling from the coil to the plugs is a MUCH higher voltage (50,000v give or take compared to speakers, 5-500v a/c depending how loud you're playing it)
my point is this, snake oil is great for the salesman but terrible for the consumer, the only way to combat this is to educate yourself by researching, understanding, and doing comparisons no matter what it is (home or car/audio or ignition), and always wear a condom

that's my story and i'm sticking to it

bell
85'911 targa

[304065]

It's been a long time since college physics, but query what permanent physical changes are occurring in any wire when you run current through it. I would assume that if it's properly sized for the application, and has low resistance, the answer is NONE. On the other hand, if you used a wire with a lower current carrying capacity, such as trying to run 1000W through a piece of zip cord, it would heat up to the point where there might be physical changes, akin to tempering/annealing/hardening, which I suppose could affect its conductivity.

But regarding ignition wires, they are probably properly sized, and are carrying high voltage, not high current, so I would guess that there is no perceptible break in period.

With regard to the audiophile world I offer only this: the stream of BS that is daily propagated in that community makes automotive snake oil like magnetic fuel savers and 40 amp electric superchargers look like mild hyperbole. E.g., "directional" cables, $1000 speaker cables, tube amplifiers, all the way to The Everlasting Vinyl v. Digital Controversy-- more people are buying more expensive stuff produced by a cottage industry of "high-end" specialist audio firms in search of sonic purity-- at best, many of these products induce distortion that may be euphonious, but it's still distortion-- at worst, people pour thousands of dollars down the tubes (no pun intended) for products with specs that are measurable only on the laboratory bench.

The next time somebody wants to spend $1000 on a set of speaker cables, request that they submit to a simple trial, say, listening to the same passage of music alternatively through the snake oil cable, and then through the cable that connects the second battery in an early 911, which you removed when you went to a single battery. Ten trials should be enough to convince them that there are only a handful of recording engineers and concert musicians in the world who could perceive the difference.

Then again, my ears are probably fried from listening to too much loud music. My favorite piece is a concerto for six trumpets, with K&N mute.

Hallelujah. Pass the caffeine.

[jwetering]

john_camer....I'm LOL. You'll ruffle a few feathers with that rant boyo. While somewhat sceptical, I am open minded and would at least be interested in performing the experiment that Doug proposes.

Unfortunately, I have what Doug Z refers to as a tin ear...a term which I assume is derived from the condition know as tinnitus, manifest as a constant ringing in the ears. I'm also rather sensitive to loud high frequency noises.

In a nutshell, I suspect I don't have the sensitivity of hearing required to distinguish between two types of speaker wires. Even more difficult, I suspect , to hear the difference if those wires were installed in the wrong direction.

But, as I said, I'm open minded.

Now what about a good driver being able to tell if one tire is inflated one psi too low?