Shop experience, Is this normal?

[LucaScali]

So I took my to a recommended Porsche shop to fix a problem with a late 80s 930. Several months ago I noticed the idle was low at start up, but once the car warmed up a bit, it would idle normally. Over time the car became harder and harder to start until one day I came to a stop and it just died. Since then it has run inconsistently--when it does run, it runs perfectly, but at times it will sputter and die right away; or start and run, but seem choked for fuel. It does not seem to matter if the engine is hot or cold, but ambient temp may be related--the warmer the day, the more problems I experience.

Anyway, in late September I manged to get the car started (using the throttle) and drove around a bit without any problems, but once I stopped and let the car idle a bit, it died again. This time when it was restarted it would not rev properly (lots of popping, etc) and required constant throttle to keep from stalling, so I had it towed to the local "experts."

In sum, they replaced the black relay in the engine bay, made a few minor adjustments, and supposedly did about 9 hours in diagnostics, but they failed to determine the problem. They claim to have tested for all ignition-related causes and believe it is a fuel issue, although both fuel pumps work fine and all major systems check out. Bottom line, they don't know.

For this I was charged close to $1200, which I negotiated down to $960. Since the starting aspect of the problem is intermittent, the car will start and is drivable for the moment, but the idle still dips very low when the car starts and its obvious that it's only a matter of time before it dies again.

My question is, is it normal practice for a mechanic to change close to $1000 in diagnostics without actually diagnosing the problem? I understand that time was spent on the car, but I'm having trouble accepting the idea that a shop that fails to pinpoint a running problem after supposedly spending 10 hours on it can reasonably demand $1000 from the consumer. It doesn't seem fair. Their argument is that now that the is starting, it's hard to figure out what caused the problem in the first place, but surely the low/sluggish idle qualifies as a symptom, doesn't it? They did agree to consider the diagnostics conducted so far when I'm forced to bring it back, and seemed genuinely disappointed they weren't able to solve it, but I'm still left with a bad taste in my mouth. They had the car for six weeks and nothing was resolved.

I'm not sure how to handle it at this point. Am I being unreasonable? Any advice/opinions would be appreciated.

[T77911S]

that a lot of time for only eliminating ignition.
fuel pressure and control pressure should have been checked. it does not take very long to check and should be at the top of the list. in fact, control pressure , along with air leaks,was the first thing i thought of when i started reading your problem. fuel delivery should also have been checked.

see if you can get a more specific list of what was done and what was adjusted.

find a new shop.

[michael pagano]

idle screw? had the same problem today....just redlined it a few times and adusted the idle screw and it idles normaly again...no tools needed

As for the shop experience when i worked in a boat yard they did basically the same thing, just because they could. I would not bring it back to that shop. If the shop were decent it would charge a number hours, and if they still hadnt fixed it, fix it on their own time if it is reasonable.

[Gogar]

Ok, so:

They had the car for SIX WEEKS?

Whatever for?

I'm guessing that $1200 is about 10-14 hours of shop time, depending on where you live. If you made an appointment, that needs to be a few days, or maybe a week or something if they needed to order parts. (My opinion.)

Where are you? Did you ask here on this board about recommended shops?

Based on your description, even I could recommend 2 or 3 things to check immediately, and I am not even a pro.

You need to find the shop that deals with CIS cars, like your 930, and '70s-'80s 911s. It's an ok system, but sometimes tough to diagnose.

My guess is you picked a shop that was not 'fluent' in the CIS system, but they didn't want to tell you they 'couldn't' fix your car.

[Wil Ferch]

I guess we need to look at this from 2 sides.....you as a customer.....and the shop/shop owner for being paid his honest time to investigate. Nothing in life is a gauarantee and if the shop knows what it's doing....puts hours in....and can't find the problem after an honest effort, how much do *you* think he should be paid for his time investment?. Zero? Full ticket? Reduced tariff?

On the other hand, you as the consumer have a right to have something fixed by going to experts. You expect them to find the problem, to know what they are doing. If 10 hours of diagnostics was required to *find* the problem.....fine......but they didn't solve the problem, did they?

Seems to me some sort of compromise needs to be worked out. Maybe reduced tariff or some consideration IF you bring the car back for other work. Maybe the shop should also realize you are not happy by paying $$ and not getting anywhere....perhaps they dig deeper and offer to go ___ hrs more for free in an *effort* to help and solve?

dunno....I see both sides.

[Winter]

Will, I respectfully disagree. How long did they have the car???? What did they charge?

You have to be kidding me.

You take your car to "experts" on the assumption that they are, indeed, "experts". I'm sure this shop would "claim" that they know their way around cars. In fact, if I called them out of the blue, and asked them if they were "experts" I'd bet they'd say, "hell yeah, we're experts, we're professional mechanics."

However, it's obvious they aren't. If my local mechanic can't figure out what is wrong with my car, there's no charge. But that's never been the case because, indeed, he knows enough to diagnose the problem and fix it promptly. 'nuff said.

I'd want all my money back, and ask them for compensation due to the insane amount of time that they kept the car, thus creating a ton of inconvenience for me for 6 WEEKS!!! Gimme a break.

They should have looked at the car, promptly informed the customer that they couldn't figure out or fix the problem and recommended another option (mechanic). That's called "good customer service". Holding onto a car for 6 weeks and not 'fessing up that you can't fix it is BOGUS.

Of course, others may disagree. . .

Good luck with this. I'd ask the forum here for shop recommendations in your area. After I'd asked the Grady Clays and John Walkers to make some DIY suggestions to see if you can't fix it yourself. When you find out it's something simple, then you'll be really pissed!

Good luck!

[LucaScali]

Thank you for the responses. Here is the breakdown of the labor:

Check out no start/poor run; charge battery; check out systems; $120

hook up press gauges & check cold, warm, and main pressure; pull air cleaner and
innercooler $220

check paddle height & adjust $55

check/set mixture, idle speed, and ignition timing (mixture too lean & timing
retarded [did not seem to be running lean; another reputable mechanic had previously told me I'd been running rich and reset it] $165

warm up engine and check running, check cold start (still poor), check 02 sensor
circuit, valve not running properly--trace out system, found main power supply
relay bad [questionable, but ok]. install new relay and check (ok). Bolt up air cleaner and innercooler $55

Repair mounting for CD Box [I just hadn't screwed in the third bolt] and wire harness routing [?] $55

Make up list of needs, test drive car, check running, recheck idle mixture and note $55

950 rpm, .84 co/111 hc, pin test engine control unit and enrichment unit, all ok $165

Total $1055, negotiated down to $952.27, plus "service supply" $50, $35 for the relay, and $30 for gas and environmental charges.

@Will

I appreciate your point, but I don't think the customer should be held responsible for "honest" incompetence, if you follow. At the end of the day, we agree to pay $110+/hour under the assumption that there is expertise attached to that time. If the mechanic is not able to diagnose the problem in 9 or 10 hours, it suggests they are not using the time efficiently, right? I understand that CIS problems can be tricky, but that's exactly why I took it in instead of throwing money at parts.

@Winter

Thanks for your note; that's exactly how I feel about it. I paid $800 today, and actually still owe them $152.27, which I agreed to pay next week. I am strongly considering withholding the balance for now, but I don't think I'll get far demanding my money back, unfortunately. When I dropped off the car, they told me they were busy and would get to it the following week. Well, one week became two, two became three, and here we are. I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to end up being something relatively simple.

[UrQuattro]

I can't believe they charged you for the test drive and the time to note the other issues with the car. If I'm not mistaken, shouldn't those be considered part of the "diagnostic"?

Most of the shops I've been to, make that EVERY shop I've been to, has a diagnostic policy to figure out the problem for generally 1-2hrs labor, which if that is as far a it goes, and either they find nothing that they can fix, no matter how much time they spent, or if I decide not to go forward with the repair, then all that is charged is the diagnostic fee. And if I do go ahead with the work, that diagnostic fee applied to the job.

Michael

[LucaScali]

That's what I thought too, Michael. I walked in there thinking I'd drop $200-$300 at most, especially since they accomplished very little. When they presented me with a bill of $1200, I was almost speechless. At this point I'm not sure what to do, to be honest. What's most frustrating is that I was assured that all the symptoms, at least, were gone (which was the reason why he supposedly couldn't give me a diagnosis); but once I started the car it was clear that the mechanic was a little "optimistic" in his assessment.

Is Michael's experience with respect to diagnostic fees pretty much standard? At this point I'm not sure what would be the best way of handling this. I want to be fair to the shop, but I feel like I've been taken for a ride...and of course I want the car fixed.

Minor correction for the sake of fairness, the revised total was $952.27, including the shop fees, etc.

[Ken911]

you were screwed might want to publish which wonderful shop this was so the rest of us can avoid it.

[Gogar]

There is a lot of goofy stuff in that invoice. $120 to 'charge battery' and 'check out systems', for example. That's the cost of a completely new battery. And, 1.5 hours for timing, idle speed, and mixture adjust.

Unfortunately, I feel that haggling about (real or perceived) labor costs at the shop is bad form, and in my opinion the best way to "Deal with It" is to pay this bill and DON'T EVER ever go back to that shop.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by LucaScali

..... They did agree to consider the diagnostics conducted so far when I'm forced to bring it back, and seemed genuinely disappointed they weren't able to solve it, but I'm still left with a bad taste in my mouth. They had the car for six weeks and nothing was resolved......

You may want to post your location, and perhaps someone here can recommend another shop. Even though we have quite a few shops around here, some with factory trained technicians, some have more experience with newer cars, some older. I'd probably try a different shop.

In their defense, you did tow it in, not drivable, and can now drive it?

[Wil Ferch]

People here are mistakenly thinking I'm taking sides in this issue...I'm not. I'm saying that sure,.,,a competent shop should spend time to fix a problem but also end-up fixing a problem. A shop should also be compensated for an honest effort. If pressed...I agree that it is not right to hand the customer a big bill and sending him off with the problem unresolved. It speaks to either a VERY vexing problem...OR... some degree of incompetence. I don't think we know enough of the situation even with the data presented...to know for sure.

That said, if the shop is competent ( big "IF" here....), is it fair for them to go down a long path toward an honest effort to solve a problem, and be paid absolutely nothing?. I guess your view on this case is whether or not you take the viewpoint of the shop owner or customer.

As I said, I was trying to put forth reasonable arguments for all sides. I know a lot of comments here will be from the "customer" perspective. Might be a good thing if folks like Steve Weiner or John Walker chime in...and respond from the shop side....as maybe they suffered a bad case like this sometime in their careers.

?????

EDIT.... In re-reading some of the additional posts and comments...it more-and-more seems the shop had incompetence in this particular area...and if so...true enough...the customer should not be expected to pay for "training", especially so if the outcome is STILL unresolved.

[Drisump]

I got screwed by an Audi dealership in the same way, they had the car for weeks, said they had fixed the problem, I paid a ridiculous sum, and a couple of days later, (on a 2000 mile road trip) the symptoms returned, leaving me stranded. I suspect the car was put in the corner and used as a "project car" for the guy who normally sweeps the floors. You get the idea, 10 minutes here, 40 minutes there, head scratching "where was I the last time?" Soon all that head scratching, trying to remember where he left off last, adds up to some serious time. It's a management/ knowledge issue.....find another shop.
Cheers

[T77911S]

i paid about $300 for a bolt for the volvo.

i replaced the AC compressor when i was out in OKC. after, the car would randomly cut off until it would not start at all. i had to have it towed t the dealer. there was a nut on the back of a bolt i took off that you could not see, it had a ground wire on it for the ignition.

i think it says a lot about the shop if they charge full price and dont fix something. they can either get all the money now and lose a long term customer or eat some of the time and gain a customer.

i saw they charged you for removing the intercooler, then another charge foe putting it back on. was that 2 seperate times or did they really have a seperate charge to put it back on.

[javadog]

Having run a few shops in my time, let me say that it's easy to bash the shop in cases like this. The fact is, we don't know what was done here. We know what was written on the invoice, which isn't necessarily the same thing. It's common to be brief on the description - nobody lists every last thing they did. You should know that it's also not unusual to have the person doing the work not be the person that finishes the ticket. The technician makes notes and the guy or gal that collects the money usually writes out what is on the invoice, after reading the technician's notes.

Another thing... a 930 is a little more complicated than a 911, when it comes to diagnosing problems like this. They take a little more time, too, if you have to start removing parts to get access to things. This car obviously had more than one issue and it sounds like it's had someone else's hands in the engine bay before. It sounds like quite a few things were looked at and sometimes you have to check a bunch of stuff, to narrow down the possibilities. Often you find that what you checked was fine but, you didn't know that going in...did you? Way too many people try to shortcut the diagnosis phase and start throwing parts at the car. That's usually not a good plan but it's really common. Read a few threads on this forum and you'll see what I mean.

Lastly, I've owned a couple 930's, one of which I bought used, from a guy that didn't take care of it all that well. It had a bunch of little issues and I had a shop fix them, one at at time. It took a long time to get the thing sortd to the point I was happy with it. Along the way, we fixed a million little things and checked a bunch of others. I'm talking about pulling the engeine out and doing everything that can be done, short of tearing into the long block. These cars are old and there's a ton of deferred maintenance on most of them. My philosophy was to go ahead and do what needed to be done for the future, not just fix what we knew was bad, right now. It cost a lot of money and I was happy to pay the bills. I got value out of everything that was done.

I can't vouch for this shop, or the guys that worked on this car, so they may or may not be good. I can't say whether this guy got screwed, as I don't know enough about the situation. I just don't like to see people jumping to conclusions, without enough of the facts. There's only one conclusion that can come from that...

Carry on,
JR

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by LucaScali

That's what I thought too, Michael. I walked in there thinking I'd drop $200-$300 at most...

Yeah its the famous Expectation Game; You expected that it will be fixed for that amount and he expect to be paid for what he did.

If he give you a guesstimate he should have not go over without talking to you.

If time/money was not discussed, he pretty well had Carte Blanche to ring up the time.

The last time (probably never again) I went to a garage (PCA recommended) it was to have the rear suspension change. When I got home I notice that the blower was not working. They forgot to plug it in. I also experience bad idling, so on the recommendation of a Porsche buddy, I order a new idling valve and when it came time to put it on, I found that all the bandit clips for all the air intake hoses were loose. Maybe they were hoping for return business.

So shortly after this, I got;



More Photos at Hemi Roadrunner Scissor Lift

[Winter]

Originally Posted by Gogar

There is a lot of goofy stuff in that invoice. $120 to 'charge battery' and 'check out systems', for example. That's the cost of a completely new battery. And, 1.5 hours for timing, idle speed, and mixture adjust.

Unfortunately, I feel that haggling about (real or perceived) labor costs at the shop is bad form, and in my opinion the best way to "Deal with It" is to pay this bill and DON'T EVER ever go back to that shop.

Agreed. And Will, I also agree that when a shop makes an honest effort to do a good job, they and the staff need to be compensated. However, at the very least the shop in question failed to communicate the ongoing issues with the car with the owner, failed to inform him that researching the problem was taking a LOT longer and costing a LOT more than expected and failed to give the owner the opportunity after a week or two to pick up the car and either live with the problem or find someone else to fix it. At the worst, the shop is totally incompetent. And, as is with most things, the truth is probably someplace in the middle.

Regardless, the issue now for the forum is to help this car run correctly. Either by assisting with diagnosing the problem to create a DIY solution or to steer the owner in the direction of a competent mechanic/shop in his area who can do the job quickly at a fair price.

After all, the money is already gone. No need to throw good money after bad, and it's doubtful that the car will ever return to said shop.

[Wil Ferch]

Winter....you say... " Agreed. And Will, I also agree that when a shop makes an honest effort to do a good job, they and the staff need to be compensated. However, at the very least the shop in question failed to communicate the ongoing issues with the car with the owner, failed to inform him that researching the problem was taking a LOT longer and costing a LOT more than expected and failed to give the owner the opportunity after a week or two to pick up the car and either live with the problem or find someone else to fix it. At the worst, the shop is totally incompetent. And, as is with most things, the truth is probably someplace in the middle......."

I would say... Excellent commentary and viewpoint !!!

[McLovin]

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