Upgrading early 911 stereos

[Phoenix]

Ok, Ok...the purist woudl say a 911 doesn't need a stereo. That beautiful flat six sound should be music enough! It is, but on those long drives, good tunes are well worth it!

My objectives:
- descrete install - maintain an as original as possible look
- nothing on the back "deck" - I never did like that
- good, crisp and clean sound - I'm not looking for bass blaster

I have a Nakamichi CD-45z as a head unit. Any ideas on:
- location of component speakers
- need, and if so, location of sunwoofer (I've seen those for the front floor of the back seats but don't want to lose that precious space)
- type of speakers

What do you guys have?
Any ideas?
Am I being realisstic?

Any input would be helpful


here's the car:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/pmpre/pm.cgi?login=Phoenix&action=display&

[JuiceMan]

Well for one thing you picked one heck of a good deck. The Nak Cd-45 is truly awesome for the price.

As far as speakers go it depends on what size of amp you plan on going with. I wouldn't go with anything huge because it's a waste of money and adds weight.

I would get a nice 4 Channel amp like an Eclipse or Alpine maybe around 75x4 and then bride the two rear channels for a subwoofer. That gives you around 150-175 watts for a subwoofer that would be perfect for a sub like a Boston Acoustics Rally 8" however if you don't want to give up that much space (would be about 1 rear footwell) then look into the small bazooka style bass tubes they are decent and will get the job done.

Then for the front speakers you have 75x2 watts to work with. I would get a nice 5 1/4" Component set like Boston Acoustics for a smooth sound or MB Quart if you are into heavy metal and hard rock.

Then just mount them in your door panels and use just a little Dynamat sound deadener (not much this stuff weighs a fair sum) on the doors. Then you are set!

[RoninLB]

I use 6 1/2 Focals in doors with Sub on rear floor and MTX 4X75 for loud crystal clear sound at 75 mph with sunroof open. For a simple sys. get 6 1/2 door speakers and 2X75 . 5 1/4 are good but don't put out the lows and volume.

[bell]

yea, your nak is a nice piece.
i'll be finishing up the audio in my 85 targa on monday and i'm going to take some pics so i'll post them when i get them on disc.
i went with a single 10" woofer, a good set of 5.1/4" for the front doors and my rears are hooked up but i'm in the process of building a custom rear deck for these but you'll never know they're there. the sub is running off of a 2 channel sony (old square ones) and the highs are running off of a matching 4-channel sony, i'm also using an audio control eql and crossover. the weight of my equipment/box/amprack is 40 pounds (it's 1 piece and is bolted between the front shock towers) so although i did add a little weight to the front, it's not noticable under normal driving and can be removed easily for any autocrossing/track days i'll do. i've been in the car audio industry for over 10 years and finally felt like doing something nice for my own car
the funny thing is.................i only really turn it up when i'm stopped.

bell
85'911 targa

[howie944]

A check with Rod Birch of Car Audio Innovations on line or a call to his shop in Sacramento might give you some ideas.

[RoninLB]

howie... Rod Birch did supply my needs. He is a class act and his prices were great. He held my hand when I needed info. on this high db/crystal clear system. Problem is it can be too clear. A cheap CD/MP3 sounds like AM radio. It can take every advantage of these new high bit CDs however..... ..bell.."never know they are there" are you talking about one sub in rear. Would like to know how you make out with EQ settings. Are you tuning it with a RTA. I would love to hear your 911 after tuning. I have whole 5CD tuning set with no "hands on" experience. You would know to do it.

[bell]

the rear deck will house the rear speakers only, the sub is in the front where it belongs the rear deck will be fiberglass covered in black leather and perferated for the sound to get through.
i've been designing custom installs and competition systems for many years so i have a "trained ear" to the music i tune to. an rta will assist you in getting a "flat" response curve in the car which won't sound good (you can use an rta to find different resonanses in the car which will assist in crossover points/box design). a flat curve will only benefit you competing in IASCA which i don't plan to do. i'll be happy to share any info/ideas to whoever requests it, i've competed on the national level in the past but just got bored with the sanctioning bodies that ran the events, now i just do it for me/friends/work

bell
85'911 targa

[thabaer]

These threads always remind me of the pile of glass some dirtbag left on the passenger seat when they permanently borrowed my wonderful TD700.

Anyhow...

I managed to tuck a Nak PA300 under each seat when I augmented the factory system. There was a handy little tab sticking up from the floorboards that fit nicely into a slot in the boards where I mounted the amps. I put 6" Yamaha subs in the doors under foam half-shells to protect from water dropping down the window, plus a good foam seal to prevent air leakage around the frame at the surrounds.

Net result was zero space loss unless you are in the habit of storing things under your seat. It also kept the weight of the amps low and centered on the long axis.

[bell]

i've been "lucky" as far as not ever been hit by a thief, the only piece of audio visable in any of my cars has always only been the head unit, my 911 is no exception, the blaupunkt head is removable face and my door speakers are using a nice but no name type of grill to hide what it is.
as "thebaer" said he's using the plastic water guards in his doors, make sure you use those, if you don't water will destroy your door speakers in a matter of months with corosion.
it's always a good idea to keep everything as stealth as possible for 2 reasons 1. to conceal from nosy eyes 2....to not take anything away from what our cars are.

bell
85'911 targa

[Phoenix]

Thanks guys for all the advice/ info. I'm pretty new at car stereo install and am just getting my feet wet.

I have no clue what size amp would be appropriate. 5 1/4 or 6 1/2 component speakers are the way I think I will go. Thinking Polk EX series or Nak SP-S5200 or CDT HD 52st/dt in the door pannels. If I can find a decent location in the pannel. Where in the front would you put th esub-woofer?

The early 911's had those nice but bulky double door pockets. One which flips open and the other more forward and fixed. Problem is, the factory istalled the speaker right behind the fixed pocket so that 75%+ of the speaker is covered. I'm no expert, but this can't be good for sound quality (would appear to me to muffle the sound.) I'd like to keep the pockets original (in fact I'm spending most of today making inner and outer aluminum sleeves to cover / reinforce the cardboard flip open door pocket.)
If I mounted the speaker a bit higher in the door, I start to run into the window crank. Any ideas?

Also, I didn't think there was enough room under the rear panels to mount anything? Are you raising the overall height of the rear pannel? My goal is also to keep everything as stealth as possible. Any photos of decrete install to give me a visual idea?

[Steve W]

Phoenix,

Go with what Ronin said and get the 6 1/2" or 7" Focal Kevlars or Utopias. You can't get any better. Pockets don't really bother the sound. Amps can be mounted under the seats and trunk. Lastly, forget mounting any speakers in the rear. Don't need it and a waste. A sub enclosure can be fabricated for the rear passenger floor area. Passengers can still sit in the rear. I'm using 2 JL 10W6s here. A pic of my stealth install is shown.

Amp under seat, Focal Kevlar 7s and tweeters in door


Sub enclosure front


Enclosure rear


Center channel

[pjv911]

Has anyone ever experimented with the smugglers box for a sub. I plan to try it out one of these days and wondered if it has any drawbacks. Of coarse I will have to make a breathable grill for the bass to enter by the pass footwell. The way i see it it will keep the weight up front , be dry, less wiring since amp is up front, be invisible to prying eye`s, and best of all you wont lose interior space. I will be experimenting with a 6" or 8" subwoofer in a custom wooden enclosure which may eliminate the smugglers door. Also may consider using lexan. Any suggestions guy`s. Does this sound feasible ?

Kurt Williams

[CamB]

Originally posted by Steve W
A sub enclosure can be fabricated for the rear passenger floor area. Passengers can still sit in the rear. I'm using 2 JL 10W6s here. A pic of my stealth install is shown.

Steve

Do you have any pictures of the sub enclosure in the car? When you say "passengers can still sit in the rear", does it matter if they have legs??!!?

And can whomever referred to rain shields please elaborate - Neither of my cars has anything, so I am not sure if you are talking about the plastic sheet (which can "flap") or something else. (edit - never mind I read the thread again and it refers to the "half foam shields" - I know what those are).

Another question - how much sound deadening do 911 doors need?

Thanks!

[RoninLB]

This is a great thread. Probably the best I've ever seen on 911 high end audio. Others have not been done by real 911 people, IMO.....bell..you are great to have around here. A real 911 man who knows high end audio. I would drive from a sand bar on the Atlantic to have you listen to my install and critique it. IMO, cabin/engine sound all affects how speakers are tuned. I do understand RTA, But I'm searching for proper tuning. I don't have a trained ear. I'm serious about you listening to my system. I don't want a shop/commercial ear doing my tuning. I'll buy you lunch, what ever.........Phoenix..I used wedges to angle the 6 1/2 Focals up and to the center between driver and pass. Don't know enough to say how effective it is?? bell would know. I also mounted Focals directly to inner sheet metal of door. I used lots of Dynamat on inner sheet metal and skin of door. Optimum, IMO, would be to aim speakers at head level between driver and pass. I'm some what in that direction. I should figure out how to post a pic. Just got digital cam. I could even show the direction of speaker with a long wood stick. Steve W is correct about rear speakers, which is a personal opnion. I don't use rear speakers. I want a front stage. Can't get it high enough. It is still below dash. I wonder if that center channel in Steve W 911 would help me some where........Cam B..I used Dynamat in trans. tunnel when eng/trans was out getting rebuilt and under carpet in cabin and on rear bulk head. Rain shields are foam enclosures that keep water from hitting door speakers. I cut out lower section of rain shield to prevent a possible "muffling" of speaker. bell would know more about it. I think bell is a key man around this subject. Also, I have the subs on floor similar to the posted picture. It does not allow any leg room for rear passengers. I don't care about rear seat passengers and is easily removed for DE.

[CamB]

"I don't care about rear passengers". Hahaha. That will be a common sentiment around here!!!!

I still haven't tried to install anything in the 911s, but had a very nice sounding system in my old Peugeot 106 (Geo Metro sized - small cabin like 911?), with 5.25" Kicker Resolutions mounted in kickpanel pods (midrange and tweeter down there). I have had a look at the 911 footwell and (on the coupe, at least) there is plenty of room if the map pocket was removed. I am getting new carpet anyway so I could get it trimmed to match...

In my Peugeot with no equalisation this setup and location was enough to raise the stage to about the top of the dash, drivers side/middle of the car. I had 2 JL Audio 10W6 in the trunk (WAY overbassed - 1 was sufficient). The 5.25" just hung in there to produce enough midrange (6.5" would have been better, but wouldn't have fit in the pods). I am confident I could EASILY install the same system in the 911 in more or less the same configuration, but think I might prefer the door speakers for a more stock look (although I am pretty sure it won't sound as good). The advantage of the kickpanel mounting was it sounded almost as good from the passenger seat (the steering column and wheel gets in the way).

I am also worried about keeping the weight down (another good reason for 1 sub not 2!). For that reason I think I will go with a single 4 channel amp (I I had 3 two channel ones - more watts = good ).

Anyone ever try kickpanel mounted speakers in a 911????

Cam

[bell]

wow...thanks ronin it's good to hear that once and a while.
i'd be happy to listen to your car and anyone elses, maybee we could have an "audio clinic" next summer
as far as the angle/placement of the doors speakers, i would leave them in a factory location to keep the integrity of the car. all speakers are designed with on-axis/off-axis response (onaxis=playing strait to your ear/offaxis=not aimed at your ear)
i would make sure you keep that in mind when deciding on a specific speaker/brand. i have never played with the focals so i can't give you an opinion on those but i do know they're a higher end speaker (i've heard them, never installed them), but remember that there is no "best", stick with the higher end lines' better speakers and make sure you have adequate power for them, have it tuned by a professional (let him know what you usually listen too and how you're going to use the system).
if you're going to pay a shop to do the install make sure you get references for the shop (that do high end CARS) , i've heard many horror stories about "professional" shops. maybee i'll start a thread on them if you want to hear them.

sorry for the long post
bell
85'911 targa

[RoninLB]

bell...I'm coming...going to hit the big roads in May and be flattered that you will listen to my 911. I will be there. The visit is a priority. Thank you very much..I did use stock location for the 6 1/2 door speakers with out removing the map pocket. The speaker grill just fits in there with the wedge under it. It takes up 1/2 vol of total map pocket. If any one is interested in a pic. I could figure out how to do it. My ideal set up would have Bruce Springsteen out on front hood and the coral from 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th extend from out side drivers window to out side pass. window. I love 110%. Front stage is every thing to me.....Cam ..to my understanding using the 911 foot wells with out surgery to metal is not a good idea. I did look into it for stage reasons. I'm trying to get the best audio with out destroying the look/body/image of my '77 coupe. The install and tuning is really 911 specific IMHO.

[bell]

well hell, we might as well plan on some sort of "meet" then, in or after may though, i'll be into another scca nationals season then but i'll have time we'll just have to organize something about a month in advance.
i'll figure something out before then, but i'm game, definately.
i'll post a new thread when we get closer to spring to see who else would be interested.

bell
85'911 targa
akron,ohio

[Steve W]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CamB
Steve

Do you have any pictures of the sub enclosure in the car? When you say "passengers can still sit in the rear", does it matter if they have legs??!!?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CamB,

Legs?? LOL, actually one of the requirements of riding in my rear seats is that you must cut off your legs! No, actually, I don't carry rear passengers all that often, and bass quality outweighed that for me. But in the few times that I do have rear passengers, I have created just enough room so that a person could slip their legs between the sub enclosure and front seat backs and fit their feet under the space of the front seats. That is why my amp and capacitor under the front passenger seat is mounted so far forward. Of course, the front seats must be slid all the way forward. My box is really small, a total of 0.65 cf for both 10s. Girls usually don't have a problem with that, but guys usually don't bother and sit sidesaddle with their feet across on the other seat. It always works out fine and I don't regret what I did. If anything, the sub enclosure is always removable in a second. You can make up for a small enclosure with lots of power and some low bass equalization - I am using a Rockford Fosgate BD1000.1 outputting 1100 watts to the JL 10s.

That said, my front staging and imaging is amazing - mainly because of the Focals. Honestly, I don't need the center channel and the Audio Control Model 11 imaging processor, and it still sounds like I have surround speakers in the rear. Vocals and instruments focus perfectly across my front and steer left to right as recorded, and delayed ambience comes from around and from the rear, even though I don't have rear speakers. I have a Dolby Prologic disk used for setting up my home theatre where there is a track where a person is walking around you in a room, and you can follow the person walking in front, around and behind you in the car. My image is above my dash an on my front hood. RoninLB, where did you mount your tweeters? I am using the Focal T90kf inverted dome kevlar and have them angled and crossfired to the opposite passenger.

Bass location is perfect behind the seats because the time arrival of sound from the door speakers and rear subs are equidistant, so therefore bass hits you from the front as it should. The added benefit, is you really feel it too, augmenting the impact. I once saw an installation where a 12 to 15 in sub was mounted firing into the smuggler's box, but I couldn't figure out how it were to vent properly into the cabin. I tried it once and it sounded muffled.

[RoninLB]

Steve W...good post with the "hands on" experience. I think I am not tuned properly. I have two 8 in. subs and 6 1/2 Focals and have done the best I can but still think some one who knows what they are doing can get more out of it. Good to read that I don't have to install a center speaker.