HP Junkies Turbo my 3.2 Part 2

[WydRyd]

Juan,
It can be tricky drilling out those splash valves. I reckon you should just get 964 2.0mm ones and be done with it. It's much easier! These are around $12 each x 6. Not worth going to the trouble of drilling out the existing ones (in my opinion).

So are you mounting the 930 pump in series with the Carrera pump? I thought the Carrera fuel pump is just replaced with the 930 Fuel Pump totally. OR are you running them in parallel? Please explain. I'm interested to learn more about this

I am also going to fit a HUGE under-pan condensor underneath the driver/passenger. It's made by PerformanceAire and is around $380US I think. The air-con lines are extra, but not much. I heard that is THE best solution for improving the air-con performance/cooling, BUT it also reduces ride height by 1-1.5" I'm told. It's designed to take full impact from road objects, so it is plenty strong enough.

Do you know how much HP the 930 Fuel Pump can flow/handle? I was actually thinking of using a 993 Fuel Pump. Is yours front mounted or rear mounted?

I highly recommend a front mounted secondary oil cooler, especially if you intend to run such high boost. I used -12AN fittings on my oil cooler. The Carrera's fender oil cooler uses -16AN, so you will also have to get converters from Earl's or some other shop that will go from -12AN to -16AN. No big deal really.

Anyway, sounds like you've thought of the heat factor already and will be coating internal components! Good idea.

[930fan]

Juan be aware that if you are using 930 3.3 p&cs that their cooling fins only go halfway around the cylinders for some unexplained reason. This means they don't shed heat as well as a 911 C2t 3.3 cylinders which have them all the way around

[juan ruiz]

Merv, I have to check on this 964 issue, the fuel pumps will be in parallel we will T them and the 930 will be mounted at front.

930 Fan, I did notice that on the heads,On the cockpit we will have IN & OUT air temp gauge from the turbo,Boost gauge,Electronic Boost Controler and Exhaust Temp Gauge we feel that we can monitor the engine this way but of couse will see where we went wrong.

[930fan]

Originally posted by juan ruiz

930 Fan, I did notice that on the heads.......

I'm sure you meant cylinders because the 930 3.3 heads are finned all around.

I see you are using an EGT gauge for tuning. I've heard a lot of conflicting info on the usefulness of an EGT gauge. The negative view is that basically EGT on it's own does not really tell you much. If your ignition timing, c/r, boost level and a/f ratios are optimised then your egt will be what ever it will be. Too high egt will not tell you whether it is due to overboost, too much ignition retard, too much ignition advance or too high c/r or a/f ratio. If you haven't bought it, save your money for a dyno session or two to optimise the car.

[juan ruiz]

Sorry, my bad cylinder that is. The DYNO will be done for sure.

[Natchamp]

930Fan, I don't entirely disagree with your view, however, I beleive EGT is a very usefull tool for tuning. Especially for air cooled motors where in-cylinder temps are crucial. They (EGT's) really need to be used in conjunction with a good A/F sensor. To really tune correctly you need a true wide-band O2 not a 0-1v which is commonly used.

For example, if you see really high EGT temps you could either be too rich or too lean and unless you have a accurate O2 sensor you wouldn't know which. If you are too lean the temps will go up because of the decreased cooling effect of the fuel and hotter/more complete burn rate. If you are too rich you can also see high EGT's because the extra fuel is actually burning our the exhaust and registering on the EGT. Also, ignition plays a major role in ETG's.

[grsilvia]

Juan, Protomotive in Ca has my 964 Cab as we speak for the stage 1. I'm adding the intercooler and 3.8 p/c also. They claim 400hp before the intercooler and p/c, so I expect to be at about 450hp (or more) in the end. I've read quite a few of your posts on the subject and that's what helped me to decide, Thanks.

Merv, You said yours will be done in a week. Is it at Protomotive in Ca? I ask because your location from the post is Australia. If it is in Ca I would love to get a look (ride?) at the finished product as mine has been there since Feb 11 and won't be done until May. I'm kinda going through withdrawals without her.

You may be asking why am I doing this mod. Started as an exhaust leak sound from the left side of the motor. I brought the car to a mechanic that I had many good references from and he removed the motor and #1 head. He then told me the head had been machined and would need to be replaced and the p/c would need to be replaced also. He estimated worse case over $9,000. I asked about the 3.8 p/c and he said he wouldn't recommend it (he likes to keep things stock). He also recommended a used 993 motor.

So this is where I started to first become ill thinking this car I had owned for 10 months was going to cost me nearly $10,000 and then only have stock hp. Then I started to research the blower/turbo idea. I decided the turbo was the way I wanted to go and Protomotive has a good reputation. I spoke to Todd at Protomotive and asked if the 964 or 993 motor would be a better platform to start with (as well as a few other mods). He said to stay with the 964 as it was plenty stong enough and that he has squeezed over 700hp from these.

Having this car is almost like having another child and nearly as expensive.
me: "Honey, the car needs some new shoes"
wife: "What's wrong with the old ones?"
me: "They wore out from the trip home from Protomotive"

Gary

[WydRyd]

G'Day GRSILVIA.

Good luck on the 3.8turbo conversion. Sounds like it will be a rocket, and so it should ;-)

My conversion is 'based' on the Protomotive Stage 1 Upgrade. I say 'based' because it is not 100% Protomotive parts.

I only used the Protomotive CHIP, J-Pipe, Fuel Press Reg & modified Valve Cover.

The rest I bought myself from various suppliers.

My car is being converted by my local Porsche wrench and 'should' be complete mid next week. It has been gone for 6 weeks, so believe me, I know what you mean by suffering 'withdrawals'. I'm starting to get the shivers and cold flushes now. Hopefully next week, I get my dose of speeeed and adrenalin ;-)

Protomotive use a Garrett turbo whereas I chose to stick with KKK, just personal preference and the rock solid reliability and proven performance in Porsches. It's a K27-7200 Quick Spool.

I also had a custom intercooler fabricated locally, which basically sits under the whole width of the 930 Turbo Tail. It's pretty big and therefore, pretty efficient at keeping charge air temps under control. Especially important when running stock Compression ratio.

Anyway, not long now.

[911pcars]

Regarding 930 compression ratios; I assume it's the combustion chamber design that limits the compression ratio on these engines. Or is it some mind-set that began with the factory's decision to use 6.5:1?

Increasing the compression ratio in a turbocharged engine is basically the same as increasing the boost, but you also gain in low end response (torque) before boost pressure builds high enough for useful power. With modern methods of controlling detonation (knock sensors w/elec. controlled ign., more efficient IC's and even water injection), perhaps a higher comp. ratio can mitigate boost lag and provide a wider torque band.

I think turbocharging with twin plugs, 4-valve heads, 8.5:1 CR and 1 bar boost would be a nice package.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars
www.seinesystems.com

[WydRyd]

Hi Sherwood! I'm the Aussie dude that ordered the HeetSheet product off you ;-)

I agree, turbocharging has come a LONG way since Porsche use to lower Compression 6.5-7.0:1. Look at the new 911 turbo's, they run 9.4:1 compression. The 993TT use to run 8.0:1 I think.

The key is more efficient intercooling, proper ignition timing, knock sensing and most importantly, the ability to deliver fuel in boost.

Mind you, there is a limit to how much boost you can run on say, 9.5:1 compression, even with intercooling and proper fuel/ignition. Anything over 10psi will require a drop in C/R.

That's my next step, to lower C/R to 8.0-8.5:1 and run 0.8-0.9bar safely. Anything over that is asking for trouble on pump fuel.

We have 98 Octane RON here in Australia and I think that's equivalent to the USA's 93 Octane CLC (or CLK) fuel.

[grsilvia]

Merv, I'm going with Protomotive's intercooler also. I figure I don't need much boost as the stock compression is retained, so the smaller turbo is fine with me. 450hp or so should provide me with a hp fix that should last a long time. The thing I'm worried about is the tail I'll need to cover the intercooler. My C2 is not a wide body, so I'd like to go with as small a tail as possible. I think the 993 turbo style tail is the one I'll use. This type of set up will be quite a sleeper, average looking car with a beast of a motor!!

Off topic, I spent a month between Darwin and Kathryn (sp?) back in August 1989 on a military exercise with the Aussie Army. I had a great time, drank many pints in a pub in Darwin (since the stores closed early on Saturday's) and spent the cash I had. Me and two guys I was with had been talking with a group of Aussies who then started buying us pints when they found out we were in the US military. Great time and we all got smashed. Toward the end of the exercise in Kathryn, the Aussie commander bought many cases of beer for all of us. Among the beer was Fosters and XXXX (four X) and two others I don't remember. I decided I would drink the XXXX since I had never heard of it and it went down nicely. I payed for it the next day as my digestive system didn't know what was coming or going all day, I was useless that day. The next day we were still pretty well hung over for our trip back to Darwin. One thing I still wonder though, is it common to always cook mashed potatoes with onions?

Cheers, Gary

[stuartj]

Merv, if you keep calling them "your wrenches", I believe they may beat you to death with your own dangly bits for sport. At best, I suspect you will find a new and interesting use for Mobil 1.

Gary, if you have been in the Northern Territory you would realise that it and its inhabitants has as much in common with the rest of AUS as the Appellation Mountains do with the rest of the US.

P content- NT has great roads, and NO speed limits. Recently a mag raised a 996TT on its springs (by several inches )and drove it to the the northern most tip of the country. We are all still wondering wondering why, but I suppose if you are going to punt an SUV around Nuburgring, why not?

[911pcars]

"Hi Sherwood! I'm the Aussie dude that ordered the ...."

Hi Merv,
Let me know how it works out w/your turbo

Regards,
Sherwood
www.seinesystems.com

[juan ruiz]

I will like to thank all of you that read this post,and all of you that share you ideas with all of us.

[Mike the mechanic]

Hey juan, hey Merv, glad to see your dream is coming turbo Juan! The 3.2 turbo club shall begin! We have a recruit in the US (Juan), one down under (Merv) and myself in Canada. We will bring terror to the members od the SCWDP. SOON, WE SHALL RULE THE WORLD! BWA HAHAHAHA

Mike
86 Carrera t

[mm86911]

Hey Mike - I'll be in Montreal for the F1 race in June - would love to check out your ride. Go up every year with a few other guys ('94 911 Cab and '96 M3 owner) and start the weekend out enjoying a few cold ones at the Irish pub on Catherine St. Great place to check out the street action.

[Colby]

Ok, this thread accelerated my turbo itch... I purchased today two Garrett T3 turbos. They are used (off Saab 900's) but in good shape. Two smaller turbos running sequentially will allow a quicker spoolup but still have a high overall flow. Also, since two will be working together, each will have to spin less to make the desired boost, so air intake temps should be lower. They will be nice to use as templates, and from there I can decide if I need to go larger. I plan to run the pair, each off one HE, then plumb them both into an IC sitting above the engine (under the turbo tail) which will run into the MAS. They have internal wastegates, set at 4psi (which w/ a boost controller I can change) so I can start off w/ mild boost and later increase it as I develop the system. They are oil cooled. I assume I'll have the return lines plumb into the tank; where should I tap into to get oil to them? Also, I plan to use a BOV right before the MAS. I am going to have a machine shop duplicate the gaskets on the exhaust intake and output side, then have my buddy at Midas weld up piping to them. I will aim the turbo air output straight up, cut two holes in the back sheetmetal to allow them to get up to the IC. Not sure where I'll mount the air filters yet...I'll have to see what kind of space is open once they are mounted. I should have this started sometime next week; I'll take pics and post!

Colby

[Mike the mechanic]

Hi Colby, It's great to see you are beginning your project. As far as turbos go, I think you should stick to the t25's off the 2nd gen Talons. They are better suited, in my opinion. You can tap into the oil pressure switch feed with a T splitter for the turbo oil feed, but you have to figure out something for the oil return. The turbos off the SSI's obviously wont be high enough for gravity drain so you will have to make oil drip accummulators/reservoirs for the turbos. You will then need a pump to suck the oil from the accummulators to the tank. I am using a Tilton pump.
If you use 944t injectors, you will run too rich off boost, if using stock motronics. Our injectors are 21 lb/hr, compared to (I think) 37 lb/hr for the 951 injectors. It is best to keep your stock injectors for now, with a rising rate adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Even with the stock pump and injectors, you can flow more than 350 hp woth of fuel. I just bought turbo Buick Grand National injectors, they are Bosch, same impedance and flow 30 lb/hr. I can correct the off boost mixture by altering the return spring's tension in the airflow metre, but 30 lb/hr is the limit.
What are you going to use as a muffler? It seems as though the turbos are going to take the muffler's spot.
later

Mike
86 Carrera t

[dickster]

i loved reading this thread

as a matter of interest are any of you using a 915 gearbox with all this power?? is it ok??

[Colby]

Why do you think the T25's are a better bet than the T3's? I thought I might max out the tiny T25's too soon (or overwork them), so I thought the T3 was a better bet. But I got these from a yard that I'm good friends w/, so I know they'll let me exchange them. Since the T25's are newer, they wanted almost twice as much for them, but if this is a better route, then that's what I'll do.

Yes, I too was curious about the oil return. There is high pressure going into the turbos, so I HOPED I could rely on that pressure to push the oil back into the tank. Not the case? Hrm, ok, small hang up (I'm sure there will be plenty more). I will do what you suggest (use a pump to push it back up and into the tank.

At 4-6psi, I didn't think I'd need new injectors yet. I was going to rely on a custom chip (which I was hoping I could have set to also retard timing, eliminating the need for an MSD) and a pressure sensitive adj. fuel pressure regulator. When I start turning up the boost, I was going to look into new injectors, larger fuel pumps, etc. But my philosophy is start simple, get the bugs worked out, and upgrade from there. Even at a measly 4psi, I am sure my hp will be well over 300hp.

Regarding the mufflers: I currently have twin Supertrapps; one of each SSI. Right off the SSI's I will now have a 90deg turn upwards, sitting the turbos right above and behind the end of the SSI. Exhaust exiting the turbo will likewise have a 90deg bend aiming to the back of the car. Nice thing about the T3 is the 02 housing had this bend, but I can easily fabricate one should I not use the stock housing. I will then have my twin Trapps heading straight back. Should they be too long, I will use shorty Trapps (loud, but the turbos will muffle some exhaust noise).

Colby