I like the 996 too, it is just upsetting to see people just buy them for the image. That is a generalisation, but I really doubt the same was true of the 993.

But Porsche needs to sell more cars, so I guess the broader appeal must be a good thing.

But then for the enthusiast there are the GT2 and GT3 and they are formidable sports cars, which if I had the money, I would certainly own one. http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...ool_shades.gif

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Phil Garner'72 911E Sporto
'87 VW Golf CL 1.6 with Weber (x1!)

I always ask myself if those individuals would (or could) ever buy a new Porsche. If the answer is no, then I honestly don't care much for their opinion, since we then don't have to design a car for them.


This is precisely the thing:
Porsche does not care what we think.
The people on this and similar BBs are not target customers for new P cars. If we were, the 996 would be more like a racing car and not the big GT that it is
They made cars EXACTLY as we wanted them to until a few years ago; when they figured out that they could make a lot more money selling to a different demographic. I think back to the owner’s survey I Pano a few months ago to a few 996ers who were talking about how they didn’t like this and that in the interior and expected more from a $75,000 "LUXURY-CAR"
Can you imagine aircooled 911 drivers Ever using that phrase? I cannot.
I compare the 996 situation to when Jaguar decided to get out of the sport scar business in 1975 and introduced the XJ-S. It was an instant change in owner profile from hardcore sportscar types of the 60s to well heeled luxocruiser types who seem to buy more new cars.
30 years ago the words Jaguar and LeMans were highly correlated. Today? Well I admit that its sort of neat to see a "Jag" in F1 but let’s not lose sight of the fact that they are servants to Ford. I’m sure the XJ-S was considered a success but I personally feel it ruined the image of Jaguar
Porsche can only rest on its image for a finite amount of time before the flame is not so bright anymore. I don’t believe that the current generation of cars will inspire the kind of loyalty that has kept Porsche in business all these years.

Mercedes still makes the G-Wagen does it not? Why can’t Porsche put the 993 back in production even alongside of the 996?

I am sure it would cost much more money than it would ever be worth to put the 993 back into production. They probably installed $m of tooling for the 996. No one would buy it either - who wants last years model?

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Phil Garner'72 911E Sporto
'87 VW Golf CL 1.6 with Weber (x1!)

When I first saw and learned about the 993 I figured they'd be building these for many years to come. When I get a 'new' 911, I'll buy one. Perhaps Porsche can bring back the 993 for enthusiasts?

Markus
911SC Targa

Gee, I guess I'm feeling a little bitter and twisted too. And I guess this entire board's opinion doesn't mean much to you Stef, because it is all about owning the older cars.

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Robert Stoll
83 SC
83 944

I really think that the 993 was the be all and end all of sports car design. I can't think of a thing I would change on it.
In Porsche's own video, produced for the 50th Anniversary, a well-known Italian designer (I forgot his name) said the 911 was a "classic" design shape, because it was womanly, ie, wide hips and narrow waist. Now that has been taken away, and the new one looks like an overpriced GT car.
While I'm on it, the headlights cheapen the front-end look. Do they not look like a dog's bone?
I would hope that the honchos at Porsche would start evolving the car back toward the 993 design, like Coca Cola with "Classic Coke".
This subject has been done to death on these pages hasn't it? And I know you'll support my right to express my opinion no matter how asinine.

Stef:

Excellent commentary on porsche design. Environment is the biggest factor in moving a car from conception to market balanced by corporate and consumer goals. I certainly can't afford a new porsche and yes there are many excellent used ones out there instead. But, who knows, in another 10-12 years, that 996 or Boxster S may not look so bad in light of what will be available then!

Michael
87 targa

911 racers comments? Calling Jack OLsen twisted & bitter? Hey, I've met Jack. Don't consider him bitter at all. Twisted? Gee, I'd have to ask his bride about that, but I don't know her that well, and it isn't my business anyway. As far as not being interested in my opinion of the new waterpumpers unless I could afford one? UH, many of us are driving older cars because we prefer them over new. We could buy new. All it takes to buy a new one is a check that won't bounce. To drive an early 911S? Takes dedication. (European Car article current issue.) Waterpumpers are BUTT UGLY! Give Freeman Thomas a few thou...he'll design a better P car. And he has the skill to do so. Oh, he has a couple of Porsches...both air cooled, both "oldies".
Glad there are plenty of Country Club folks buying 996's and BoxSters. But, Tiger Woods drives a Buick...when he drives.

[This message has been edited by pwd72s (edited 07-18-2001).]

Stef, many of us are driving cars that are not exactly street legal but a heck of a lot of fun. I understand what you are up against, but keep trying. The last GT2 was about perfect, I think the GT1 was, then again I like 935's too. Make mine something that can stomp a Viper, or at least show him my tail lights. Make it near the same price and I'm in.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/devil.gif

David 89 turbo cab

I don't think Jack is "twisted and bitter". It's just that he doesn't like the Boxster or 996. That's why they make vanilla and chocolate.

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'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
The Blue Bomber's Website

One argument that comes up when we owners of older models speak out against the new cars is that out opinion doesn't matter because we couldn't afford one anyway. From what I've read on this board about the money spent on the old ones, I don't think that's entirely true. I'm betting that at least 50% of the BBS could swing a Boxster, and a significant percentage could make the lease payments on a Carrera - check the "how many cars?" thread if you doubt me.

Without posting my tax returns, I'll state that I'm in that bracket and I'll never own a 996. I understand that they're great cars and all that, but they simply aren't to my taste. I like the Boxster S, though, and went so far as to test drive one, but I can't see myself owning one. A big part of what I like about my cars is tinkering, and the newer models have that part of the fun engineered out. The previous cars were for car hobbyists and racing enthusiasts, and the new one aren't because that market is shrinking. As it just happens to be the market I'm in, the cars don't appeal to me as much.

I don't blame Porsche for looking for a more profitable market, nor do I bear any ill will towards the folks buying the new ones. But part of the decisions made by Porsche is that a fair amount of criticism will be leveled at them. And it is silly to take the attitude that unless you are an immediate potential customer, car magazine writer, and/or a car designer, you're not entitled to an opinion.

Emanuel

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Everybody wants a normal life and a cool car;
most people settle for the car." Chris Titus
1966 Rolls-Royce Silver Shadow
1983 Porsche 911 SC Targa

I'm plenty twisted, but there just isn't much in my life to be bitter about.

Stef, I know you guys are caught between a lot of different market and regulatory imperatives, and you are correct that the new models are selling very well. Then again, Toyota sells a lot of Camry's, but I don't think they'd make the argument that that must mean they're building a world-class sportscar.

And I don't hate the look of the Boxster. I don't think it's significantly uglier than the vast majority of other cars on the road. Most Asian imports, to my eye, are kind of dull looking -- very utilitarian. American car design went south in the seventies and has never come back, if you ask me.

And importantly, the Boxster and the 996 are both awesome performers. Tell me I'm going to be racing at Laguna Seca tomorrow with my choice of street-legal Porsche models and I'll be behind the wheel of an 01 996TT in a heartbeat. Traction control and Tiptronic (even) can make up for a lot of driver shortcomings, and the cars are fast and agile. I also think the Boxster S offers great performance for the buck.

Heck, I'll see if I can piss even more people off. I think Porsche has only come up with beautiful designs a handful of times in its entire history. The 550, 904, 356, and 911 are all gorgeous designs (I even think the 928 is kind of cool looking). But there have been a lot more misses than hits in the company's historic model lineup.

And the forces that shape a new design are not as absolute and unyeilding as you present them. The 993 was a better looking shell than the 996, but it cost more to make. You can tell me that the company would have become insolvent if it kept making such an expensive car, but the argument can also be made that the record profits the company has been raking in might simply have been slightly reduced with the more expensive shell. Corporate greed is another factor in new model design. The extent to which the shareholders of Porsche need to increase their investments is not a hard and fixed figure.

As many people have pointed out, taste is subective, and there are a lot of people who probably never liked the look of the 911, and now think the 996 is a really fine looking automobile. I'm glad they've found what they're looking for. And contrary to what you implied, there are plenty of people on this board who could afford to buy a new 996, or a Turbo, or even two or three Turbos. I could, and I like Porsches, so I guess that means I'm in the company's target demographic. But as a single, subjective voice in this ongoing (will it never end?) discussion, I'm more likely to keep my old-fashioned 911 for its performance, and get a better looking car for more routine driving.

An example of a car meeting exterior real-world criteria, and selling to a similar (but certainly not identical) demographic is Jaguar. Now, I don't want to go on record saying they're better cars (they are much worse cars, at least for the things most of us value in a car), but their exterior styling accomplishes what Porsche's designs used to -- looking at the F-Type makes you feel like a kid again.

Here are two visual alternatives to the Boxster (or the Carrera GT) and the 996. Again, I'd pick the Porsches for the track, every time. But if I were an 8-year-old kid looking out the window of a minivan today, these two would get a more enthusiastic thumbs up.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate...BetterLook.jpg

And a Ferrari 360 Modena would get an even broader grin. But that's just me. Everybody's entitled to their own ideas about how a great car should look. Porsche should make the decisions the company feels are best, but they should also pay attention to what people like us are saying. With no racing program, and uninspiring-looking cars, you're going to see degrading brand loyalty and crumbling brand mystique as the years continue to pass.

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Jack Olsen
My Rennlist home page • My Pelican Gallery page • My Porsche Owners Gallery page

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 07-18-2001).]

Well said, Jack. Bless the twisted! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by pwd72s (edited 07-19-2001).]

Random thoughts...

How long before the next gen 911? Isn't it only a year or two? Maybe Porsche will hear our cries.

How do we feel about the 996's getting the Turbo headlights? Does it make a difference?

Maybe the 993 gives us 959 mojo, while the 996 gives us that of the Boxster?


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Ray
73 914 2.0L

--"How long before the next gen 911? Isn't it only a year or two? Maybe Porsche will hear our cries."--

The guy who did most of the design work on the Carrera GT is also the Chief Stylist on the 997. If you like the GT, then you will propably like the 997 too.
Regards
Stef

Ok, moving to another forum...

-Wayne