Winter Rally Tyre Advice

[wilsonlaidlaw]

I am looking at doing at least one and maybe two classic winter road rallies this year in my tarmac rally spec Carrera 3.0 RS. At the moment I have 225/50 x 15 Yokohama A022 all weather rally tyres fitted back and front on 8" front and 9" rear Minilite wheels (don't like wide Fuchs after had a rim failure on my Kremer 2.6, 30+ years ago). Certainly in the UK, there seems to be no availability in 225/50 x 15 in winter tyres or close, particularly in 102/3 load rating, which I prefer for the rears. These tyres are probably a bit wide for snow anyway. I was thinking of getting another set of wheels (steel if I can find any) in say 6" and 7" x 15 and putting on Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 195/65 x 15.

Any other suggestions guys?

Wilson

My 3.0 RS on Coupe des Alpes last year

[chris_seven]

Very Tricky - most UK based Historic Rallies require the use of 70 Profile Tyres and have very specific rim width regulations and finding suitable competition tyres in 15" diameter is very tricky. The FIA clearly allow wider wheels and lower profile tyres.

For asphalt on FIA events we have been using Michelin TB15's 18/60 -15 on 8" front and
23/62-15 on 9" rears and they have been working quite well.

The type of tyre you will need for snow is quite a complex issue and again finding 15" diameter in modern tyres will be quite difficult.

I would tend to run a much narrower wheel and a significantly higher profile.

I would look at Yokohama A035E tyres which are available in 195 x 65 x 15 for the front and a 205 x 65 x 15 on the rear.


I would also consider the Dunlop DZ86/RW which a directional tyre and also available in 195 and 205 x 65 x 15.

If it is really snowy then Dunlop SP82 may be better but these are 70 profile and available in a 185 x 70 x 15 and 195 x 70 x 15

There are also some quite good Khumo tyres with 60 and 65 profiles with suitable tread patterns/compounds R700/800 Series

These tyres are more of a traditional M&S type tread pattern than modern winter tyres but they do dig down well into snow and give great traction.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Many thanks Chris. That is all very helpful.

I have tended to avoid UK motorsport events for the last 20 years. I found they had a tendency to be run by stuffy blazer clad people, who seemed to use the rule book in the manner expected from a local government employee. That said Tour Britannia this year was very well run, although sadly the brand new clutch on our 250 GTO died after 2 days, which turned out to be a faulty batch. The 70 profile tyres rule is a good example. I should not like to drive my RS in the dry on 70 profile tyres. I should think with 285 HP, it would be lethal, with horrendous lift off oversteer.

I have run Michelin TB tyres in the same sizes you were running. They did give a bit more grip in the dry than the Yoko's but they are expensive and arrive "half worn", with very shallow tread depth. They are also a bit exciting when temps drop and it gets wet. On the Coupe des Alpes last year, we did have a small amount of snow over the Col d'Iseran at around 9,000 feet and the Yoko's coped quite well. With a KAZZ 100%-50% LSD, my RS is pretty abrasive on rears and TB's only last about 1500 miles, which gets a bit heavy on the pocket.

Wilson

[chris_seven]

Wilson,

We have run a 280BHP 3.0 litre car - SC based Twin Plug Motor in a narrow RS look alike body on BHRC events such as The Manx, Ulster and Killarney on 185 x 70 x 15 DJ83s with 6" Minilites all round and it isn't too bad but we use the X012 compound which in the dry are good for around 100 miles.

We use a plate diff but with very tight coast ramp which does calm down the trailing throttle oversteer and we have backed off both the preload and the power ramp.

I think the KAAZ has fairly high preload and a not much lock up on coast butt I am not entirely sure.

We are currently planning to use a 1969 911S on the FIA Sporting Championship next year and the SWB 911s we saw recently in Ypres were running A048Rs. We hope by running a Group 3 911S we will keep costs under control and not have to fight with the RSRs so it should just about be affordable.

I would tend to agree with some of your comments about some of UK events.

We have competed on the BHRC Stage Rally Championship on an off since 2003.

We ran a 1965 SWB car for a short time and it was delightful and handled very well but it was fitted with Webers.

I think narrow 70 profile tyres are OK for Category 1 cars - up to 31/12/1967 and perhaps even for Category 2 which cuts off on 31/12/1974 but crazy for Category 3 which takes us up to 1982 as by then everyone ran Dunlop A2s on Gravel and TB15s on Asphalt.

On the other hand the events are excellent and the competitors are a great bunch of guys.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Chris,

I am running a single plug modified 3.2CS engine, with gas flowed Motronic and custom chip, written for it on a dyno. This was specifically designed for the non-FIA Alpine events I do. It has the bottom end torque from 2500 that the 3 litre doesn't and with the Motronic, means I can run a 65 litre fuel tank rather than the 105 litre I would need for mechanical injection. I can then fit the space saver and battery right forward to improve the static weight distribution. Maybe it is down to the Tuthill struts, as well as the KAZZ but I was amazed how benign it was on lift off, which for Alpine events, is obviously rather desirable, when you come round a corner and find a damned goat in the middle of the road and an unfenced 1000 foot drop off the side. Compared with the 2.6 Kremer I had years ago, it is a total pussy cat.

The KAZZ is 100% lock on drive and 50% lock on over-run. You can control the locking speed with lubrication type. If you want very violent locking (it even locked on sharper motorway bends), you use Castrol B373 but I think that is really suitable for circuit only. With Syntrax 75W140, it is much more gentle and is not banging away every time you pull out of a road junction. KAZZ suggested to me for rallying, I reverse the cam to make it 50/100 instead but it seems fine with the Syntrax.

I may look at some more UK events after doing Tour Britannia this year but mostly booked for next year, where I am doing the Trans America in a long distance rally prepared Mercedes 280SL.

Best mod this year Rennshift 915 box complete shift kit from JWest Engineering. This is I think, better than the WEVO and certainly better value - no more missed changes!

Wilson

[m110]

DMACK is a chinese company that has recently entered the WRC. They have 70 series tires in 175, 185, 195 that are in 15inch. Also ice tires with sweden studs.

http://www.dmacktyres.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Dmack-Booklet.pdf

I have no affiliation and no longer rally but I have friends who seem to like them.

[chris_seven]

Interesting tyres but one issue with the BHRC Stage Championship is that you now have to run Dunlop Tyres.

Dunlop is the main Series Sponsor and the regulations now say if they make a suitable sized tyre that is what you have to use.

Ho Hum !

[wilsonlaidlaw]

I don't think the Dunlop rule would apply to me therefore, as they don't make anything that will fit my 9" x 15J rear wheels, for non-snow tarmac use. They do a 225/55 x 15 D84J all weather but the max permitted rim width is 7.5". On the DZ03G dry tyres, the widest they do in 15" is only 205, which is no use to me at all.

I don't do many gravel rallies now, as my bones are too old and too arthritic to get rattled around. Scandinavian ones are different as their gravel roads are very well graded. The worst I have found was Nambia, where you have sudden gullies filled with slurry, so you get a great wave of mud right over the roof and have to stop to clear the lights. You also get truck tracks that are so deep, that unless you have 4WD, you cannot steer out of them.

Wilson

[chris_seven]

Maximum Wheel size on BHRC is 7" and most comptitors run the 185 x 70 x 15 on a 6" front and 7" rear wheel.

This is one area where the ruels don't seem well founded and a Chevette HSR or Lotus Sunbeam ran much wider wheels and much lower profile tyres in period.

Even for Regularity Road Rallies wide wheels are not permitted and only Tour Brittania seems to have overcome this issue.

I think this is why more people are starting to take an interest in European Events.

165s are fine on A40's and Sunbeam Rapiers but not a lot of fun with 200BHP+

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Chris,

I well remember running my 1972 2.6 Kremer on 185 and 195 /70 x 15 tyres on 6" and 7" wheels (usually Michelin XWX or Pirelli CN36) and it was pretty exciting for a 30 year old. Certainly much too exciting for a 65 year old nowadays. When I specced 8" and 9" x 15" wheels last year I thought I was being pretty conservative and could have easily gone for 9" and 11" x 16". Most of the other guys with 2.8 RSR's and 3.0 RS on the Coupe des Alpes had 9" front and 11" or wider on the rear.

On the Tour Britannia I think we were running 225/70 x 15" on 7" Borranis but of course that is on a 1962 vintage, front engined car that was designed to run on L profile Dunlop cross ply racers.

This is what irritates me about British Motorsport - too many rules, with the fun element heavily suppressed. When I moved from British Hillclimb Championship to the European in 1991, I was amazed how relaxed it all was and how welcomed I was made to feel. It was great fun sometimes driving either a Ralt F2 or a Lola F3000 car 5 or more kilometres down public roads from the paddock to the hill climb start, so for once, you left the line with hot tyres. The police en route waving you on to go faster and make more noise. When I first arrived, I still had a silencer as the French rules stipulated a 103 dB limit. Nobody paid the slightest attention to it. Also when they brought in the pump fuel rule in 1993, certainly until I retired in 1999, none of the 2 or 3 litre single seat cars obeyed it, as you found out when you had to sit in their exhaust gas. Neither the BMW M12 or the Judd engine I was using, would run on pump fuel.

Wilson