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-   -   Whoa, are injectors suppose to look like this? (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/627566-whoa-injectors-suppose-look-like.html)

RWebb 09-01-2011 10:34 AM

Exactly. You may have an oil leak or bad rings (?) Have you done a compression test recently?

Hotwatermusic 09-01-2011 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpnovak (Post 6230274)
the bigger issue is why is there so much oily residue in your intake? valve guides? oil overfill?

I think I would pull the intake and look at the rest of the heads while cleaning out ALL of it.

Since the engine is out of the car, pull the fuel head and clean it out along with the CIS plunger. Guaranteed that its gummed with old fuel and needs to be cleaned. your throttle response will be much improved after cleaning. Generally, hesitation is gone as well.

So much "while you are in there" stuff that does not cost money.

I have had very good luck cleaning CIS and MFI injectors using some Berrymans ChemTool in a HF ultrasonic bath. Best $39 tool in the garage for cleaning up engine parts.

How does one pull the intake? Or pull the fuel head? Is there a Bentley chapter on it? I would love to clean all this up but have no idea how to get it removed. I have a Bentley manual, Haynes manual, and 101 projects--where can I find it covered?

Hotwatermusic 09-01-2011 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6230306)
Exactly. You may have an oil leak or bad rings (?) Have you done a compression test recently?

No, I've never done a compression or leak down test. Engine was rebuilt in 2002, and has probably 90K on it since then.

Hotwatermusic 09-01-2011 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpnovak (Post 6230274)
the bigger issue is why is there so much oily residue in your intake? valve guides? oil overfill?

I think I would pull the intake and look at the rest of the heads while cleaning out ALL of it.

Since the engine is out of the car, pull the fuel head and clean it out along with the CIS plunger. Guaranteed that its gummed with old fuel and needs to be cleaned. your throttle response will be much improved after cleaning. Generally, hesitation is gone as well.

So much "while you are in there" stuff that does not cost money.

I have had very good luck cleaning CIS and MFI injectors using some Berrymans ChemTool in a HF ultrasonic bath. Best $39 tool in the garage for cleaning up engine parts.

So I attempted to remove the aluminum intake tube from the airbox to cylinder #1. I removed the two nuts and the rubber boot at the airbox end. I then begin to pull up on the intake to raise it off the bolts, but it seemed as if something else was holding it on. I quickly decided not to pursue it any further until I knew exactly how to do it. Is there something besides the two bolts and rubber boot that connects the intake?

jpnovak 09-02-2011 06:20 AM

No, Just a paper gasket that has probably glued itself to the head after so many years of use.

You should just pull the whole intake as one unit.

Unplug the wires for cold start and the fuel pump relay (back of CIS)
remove the 12 nuts that correspond with the 6 intake runners
I think there is a support bracket in the rear center of the CIS airbox
disconnect the throttle linkage
LIft up and remove entire intake

Now start pulling it apart and cleaning.

To pull the fuel head you need to first remove the 6 injector lines.

Make sure to catch all the copper washers on the banjo bolts. Best to replace but you can use them again if on a strict budget.
There are 3 locating bolts on the top of the fuel head. Loosen and then lift up on the fuel head.
Make sure to catch the fuel distributor pin underneath. DO NOT DROP THIS PIN! If you damage it it will never work properly. It is a high precision machined part that mates with your fuel head.

Take the fuel head and immerse it into a gallon pail of Berrymans or your other favorite solvent. Diesel and Mineral spirits also work. let soak overnight.

remove and drain followed by a blow out with compressed air. Make sure there is no brown crud on the fuel pin. It should now slide in/out of the distributor head extremely smoothly with only minimal drag.

Now reinstall everything. You should be good to go.

Hotwatermusic 09-02-2011 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpnovak (Post 6231952)
You should just pull the whole intake as one unit.

Unplug the wires for cold start and the fuel pump relay (back of CIS)
remove the 12 nuts that correspond with the 6 intake runners
I think there is a support bracket in the rear center of the CIS airbox
disconnect the throttle linkage
LIft up and remove entire intake

Now start pulling it apart and cleaning.

This sounds doable, and I will tackle it ASAP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpnovak (Post 6231952)
To pull the fuel head you need to first remove the 6 injector lines.

Make sure to catch all the copper washers on the banjo bolts. Best to replace but you can use them again if on a strict budget.
There are 3 locating bolts on the top of the fuel head. Loosen and then lift up on the fuel head.
Make sure to catch the fuel distributor pin underneath. DO NOT DROP THIS PIN! If you damage it it will never work properly. It is a high precision machined part that mates with your fuel head.

Take the fuel head and immerse it into a gallon pail of Berrymans or your other favorite solvent. Diesel and Mineral spirits also work. let soak overnight.

remove and drain followed by a blow out with compressed air. Make sure there is no brown crud on the fuel pin. It should now slide in/out of the distributor head extremely smoothly with only minimal drag.

Now reinstall everything. You should be good to go.

This sounds grossly above my skill level. Is this a must do job?

Joe Bob 09-02-2011 09:45 AM

The fuel head isn't that bad. Mostly nuts, bolts and washers. Just take your time and put down clean butcher paper so nothing gets misplaced.

dtw 09-02-2011 10:01 AM

CIS looks intimidating, but you can handle it. One thing you can do is the injection delivery check that has been suggested here before. If you find a low injector, swap it out for another one that delivered the right amount. Retest. If volume is still low, you probably need to rebuild the fuel head. If the volume comes up, then you need to clean or replace the original injector. Check spray pattern while you're doing this.

Bosch MFI and CIS injectors are sealed, non-serviceable parts. Later Motronic injectors I believe have removeable pintle caps that allow for rebuilding. If CIS bad injectors don't respond to ultrasonic cleaning and/or solvent flush, you are pretty much boned. It is worth the spend to replace bad and even marginal injectors - the impact on driveability, fuel economy, and throttle response is amazing. Just for fun, if you have a bad injector or two, put it all back together after doing your repairs and drive around the block. Replace one bad injector with a new one and do the same trip. You'll be a believer.

To add to what Jamie said above, as far as servicing the CIS, consider replacing the runner boots and re-sealing your popoff valve while you're at it. Both easy to do while everything is apart. And yes, definitely, remove the CIS as a unit. You may have to carefully pop the runners off their gaskets, but they'll come right off. Be sure you get all the washers off the intake port studs when you remove the 12 nuts off the runners.

The real question to me is, what's up with your ports? That's pretty heavy carbon. How has your oil consumption been tracking? I would strongly recommend a leakdown test while you have the motor out. You may be due for rings and/or guides again.

If you're feeling like you've opened Pandora's box, well, you have. That being said, I know me and most of the guys posting on this thread have BTDT, if it makes you feel any better. And at least you found an aluminum pressure plate...that's sort of a silver(y) lining...

aston@ultrasw.c 09-02-2011 10:41 AM

another vote for RC engineering

they came back so clean, i thought they were new!

DaveE 09-02-2011 10:59 AM

Please keep in mind not to drop anything down the intakes!!

Hotwatermusic 09-02-2011 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveE (Post 6232533)
Please keep in mind not to drop anything down the intakes!!

Good lord, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm terrified of. So far I've dropped the engine/transmission, adjusted the valves , taken the clutch apart, removed the fuel injectors, and have somehow managed to not make a massive bonehead mistake yet (like dropping a washer down the intake).<p>I don't know how long I can pitch this no hitter.

dshepp806 09-02-2011 02:47 PM

PLAN,...PLAN,..PLAN,..design for worst case condition (my mantra/protocol). Conceive every frikin' fuch-up,..and plan for it......

Best to you!

Doyle

E Sully 09-02-2011 03:00 PM

A few photos and ziplock bags labled with a permanent ink marker make life a lot simpler.

scotricker 09-02-2011 03:01 PM

So, is it possible to remove the entire CIS while the engine is in the car?
I have been wanting to check those O-rings on the sleeves, and check the gaskets and rubber connectors, too. I already replaced the smaller fatty O rings on the injectors themselves.

Is it a big terrible job? will it take forever? Or wait until someday when I take the engine out anyway?

Hotwatermusic 09-02-2011 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotricker (Post 6233046)
So, is it possible to remove the entire CIS while the engine is in the car?
I have been wanting to check those O-rings on the sleeves, and check the gaskets and rubber connectors, too. I already replaced the smaller fatty O rings on the injectors themselves.

Is it a big terrible job? will it take forever? Or wait until someday when I take the engine out anyway?

Man I'm in the middle of trying to remove my CIS with the engine out, standing right over it in a very well lit garage and I can't fathom how to get to the inside nuts on the intake runners on the 5th and 6th cylinder. If it's possible to remove the CIS with the engine in, I'd be freaking amazed.

scotricker 09-02-2011 08:27 PM

well, that sort-of answers that for me...thanks and good luck with your project.


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