Seven years without a Porsche

jacktar · 10-01-2011, 11:33 PM

Seven years ago I sold my 1990 964. It had 80k miles when I bought it and I put 90k miles on it, so it was pretty worn. And it was damn expensive to repair because it was so complicated I couldn't do much of the work myself.

Seven years is long enough. This time I want one that I can repair, and I don't want to deal with CA smog tests, so I'm looking for a 911, maybe a 912, built in or before 1975. I bought a couple of 911 buyers' guides, one by Peter Morgan and one by Randy Leffingwell. Morgan's book is light on serial numbers and such, and Leffingwell's book is repetitive, but they're both decent enough books. Morgan spends only a paragraph or two on the 912 and Leffingwell hardly acknowledges its existence.

A couple of questions not answered in the books... If I buy one that needs an engine rebuild, how much should I plan to spend to rebuild it, assuming I do all the non-machine-shop work?

Is it possible to do a 912/911 engine swap? What would be involved?

elflamo · 10-01-2011, 11:57 PM

Are you asking about a 911 engine rebuild or a 912? If 911, which one (turbo might mean different figures).

As you are buying the books, best buy is Wayne's Engine rebuild book, there is a whole section on your question (if it relates to 911)

Dennis

jacktar · 10-02-2011, 12:10 AM

Sorry, I meant a 911 rebuild, not a turbo, and preferably a small displacement. Thanks for the tip about Wayne's book. I will certainly buy it if I get a 911 that needs a rebuild.

jacktar · 10-02-2011, 12:12 AM

I won't buy a 912 that needs an engine rebuild unless the car is really inexpensive and engine swaps are feasible.

porwolf · 10-02-2011, 12:53 AM

I am always curious about what the attraction of a 912 is. I had one once, a 65 with a 356C engine. The car was slow!!! The body is just too heavy for that engine. It was designed for the 6 cylinder motor. Not nearly as much pep and fun as my first P-car, a 62 356B. After that I got a 68 911T. Huge difference to the 912. And the 6 Cylinder engine runs so smooth! Now that car was fun to drive.

Scott Douglas · Scott Douglas's Garage

jacktar
See this thread for info on engine swaps in a 912:
911 Engine Swap
They are feasible and this one is well done. I've seen it myself, in fact I helped Bob get it running the first time he started it.

The attraction of the 912 is they're a Porsche number one. A well running one in the hands of a good driver will out run a 911 on a tight course quite easily as the dynamics of having less weight in the rear end enhances the handling, a lot.
I recommend you take a look at the 912bbs.org board for more.

5String43 · 10-02-2011, 08:55 AM

+1 on the notion that 912s are slow. One big reason I sold mine. Plus, it seems that engine rebuilds are quite expensive. And when you're done, the car is still slow.

I much prefer my 911SC, which is a much more substantial car. I don't know what a total engine rebuild would cost, but last year at about this time a comprehensive upper-end rebuild cost me $9,800.

jacktar · 10-02-2011, 11:00 AM

porwolf and 5string43: Though I've never driven a 912 I'm prepared to accept one because they're significantly cheaper. But if they really are THAT much slower maybe I should consider one only if it's REALLY cheap. Thanks for the advice

But Scott has a point: they are Porsches, after all. I've thought a lot about what car to buy. I've rejected convertibles like the Alfa Spyder, many British makes, and Datsun Roadsters. I've rejected heavy cars, eliminating virtually all American cars. Price is a factor, so no more Ferrari 308s. I'm pretty much left with Porsche coupes, and I just can't get excited about a water-cooled Porsche. That leaves the 911 and the 912.

Thanks for the pointers to the 911 engine swap page and 912bbs.org. Probably a waste to do the swap on a short wheel base car, so that leaves only the '69 912.

4string43: What does "upper end rebuild" mean on a flat engine? (On V-engines it would mean heads as well as induction, etc.)

exc911ence · exc911ence's Garage

Install a modified Type 4 engine into a 912 and it won't be slow:

Porsche did this and called it the 912E, but the 2.0L can be brought out to close to 3.0L (IIRC) and puts out 911 horsepower at that size. On the flip-side, you could just find a clean 74/75 911S with the required engine/exhaust upgrades and enjoy it as-is.

Arne2 · Arne2's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacktar

But Scott has a point: they are Porsches, after all. I've thought a lot about what car to buy. I've rejected convertibles like the Alfa Spyder, many British makes, and Datsun Roadsters. I've rejected heavy cars, eliminating virtually all American cars. Price is a factor, so no more Ferrari 308s. I'm pretty much left with Porsche coupes, and I just can't get excited about a water-cooled Porsche. That leaves the 911 and the 912.

Or a 240Z. Six cylinder sport coupe, fun and reasonable. But finding un-rusted examples is hard. They are affordable to buy and maintain, though.

But even so, honesty compels me to admit that I HAVE a really nice, rust-free 240Z, and currently have it for sale so that I can buy a 911...

jacktar · 10-02-2011, 12:10 PM

ex911ence: Yep, and I'll bet 912Es aren't any cheaper. You're right, a 911 is a better choice. Besides, 912Es were made only in 1976, so they still need to be smog tested in CA. :-(

Arne2: Yes, I've considered the 240Z! I think, however, that if I'm going to dedicate my time to a car it might as well be a Porsche. But please post a link to an ad for your car, or send me one if posting is not appropriate here. A straight-six is a damn fine configuration.

Arne2 · Arne2's Garage

Quote:

But please post a link to an ad for your car, or send me one if posting is not appropriate here.

I'm not sure if that's appropriate here or not. So just in case, PM sent.

5String43 · 10-02-2011, 03:13 PM

Upper-end rebuild meant, in my case, new studs, new rings, new valves, rebuilt heads including new valve guides, several cam lobes and several rockers resurfaced, cylinders resurfaced, new tensioner chain rails, plus hoses, gaskets, sparkplugs and more, including a whole bunch of labor. Plus while the engine out it also got a new clutch, pressure plate and throw-out bearing. The price I paid also included a post-break-in valve adjustment and oil change, no small thing.

Perhaps I've been misinformed, but it's my understanding that to completely rebuild a 912 engine - I mean, do it right, bringing it out to 1,720 ccs, new cam and all that - would cost something not all that far south of what I spent. What you get is something between 112 and 120 hp, depending upon who you listen to.

Additionally, prices for 912s these days have gone through the roof, from what I've seen. I'm mystified by that, but oh well, it's a free country and people get to drive what they want to drive.

jacktar · 10-02-2011, 07:54 PM

5string43: Sounds to me like everything was done but the crankshaft and rod bearings. Your $10k expense will really help me during my search. Thanks. And I agree about rebuilding a 912. Not a good idea. As far as prices, seems I can get an acceptable 912 for around $14K, a 911 (an early one) for around $19k.

Sorry to drift away from technical stuff in this forum.

r_towle · 10-02-2011, 08:19 PM

10k to do a rebuild on a 356/912 motor is normally what it costs.

Rich

5String43 · 10-02-2011, 09:07 PM

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seems I can get an acceptable 912 for around $14K, a 911 (an early one) for around $19k.

Yes, well - you might want to keep in mind the general wisdom around here, which is that one way or another, they're all $20,000 cars. If you can find an SC or a Carrera that's had everything already done to it for that money or less, in my view, at least, you'll be ahead of the game.

jacktar · 10-03-2011, 02:23 PM

Rich, thanks for the data point. Also, in Pelican Technical Article: Affordable Porsches... "Randy Duvall says a complete rebuild can easily run $5000 for parts and machine work" so that's without labor charges.

5String, that's roughly what I had in mind for a 911. Might be worth keeping in mind that a Boxster can also be had for $20k. Don't know if anybody here has driven one, but in my humble opinion, they're agile little screamers. If only they weren't convertible.

WIL84911 · WIL84911's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arne2

....HAVE a really nice, rust-free 240Z, and currently have it for sale so that I can buy a 911...

+1. I was looking for one when I realized a 911 can be had for the same price. Never looked back.

ctcranor · 10-04-2011, 08:10 AM

As I understand the laws on that side of the universe, you can register a car per the year it represents?? That being said (all hater comments not needed), have you considered a Porsche replica like Beck? From what I've seen you can get a very nice "vintage" car with modern upgrades and be smog exempt....I may be misinformed about that but someone in the LA area just bought my Factory Five Roadster ('65 Cobra replica) and that is what he is in the middle of doing.

Just a thought!

jacktar · 10-04-2011, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctcranor

As I understand the laws on that side of the universe, you can register a car per the year it represents??

I just studied up on this a bit. California will allow the first 500 applicants per year to register a vehicle as whatever year the car looks like. Everyone else has to get signed off by their local Smog Tyrant, as I like to call him. (I unsuccessfully tried to get a '78 postal jeep approved.) But I think there must be special channels for the major kit car companies since they sell a lot of cars in CA.

But thanks for reminding me of kit cars. I spent some time looking around the web -- gawd, I've wasted a lot of time today -- for Porsche kits or anything else that might be interesting, but didn't find any coupes I could live with.

I keep searching and coming back to the 911. And maybe the 912.