My car died on me - ideas?

epbrown · 03-14-2002, 11:56 PM

It was an uncharacteristically warm day here in Chicago, so I drove the Porsche to work. On the way home (12 a.m.) the car just died on me. The electricals starting going intermittent (tachometer died, headlights flickered, radio cut in and out) and then the car just stopped. Battery seems fine (it came off 2 weeks on a trickle charger earlier in the day) and turning the key to power position brought back the lights, radio, and everything else electrical, but the car wouldn't start. No starter grind, no solenoid clicking, nothing. The sole symptom is that I can hear a high-pitched whistling somewhere towards the back of the engine bay, on the driver's side. Perhaps related is that I noticed my steering column was loose - it was moving up and down and side to side. I noticed it moments before things went wonky, but it doesn't appear to be related - jiggling things and then trying to start the car was no different.

Thoughts or ideas? Personally, I think it's revenge on me for not driving it this winter. I don't suspect the starter, and I checked the battery connections, and the fuel pump looked fine. I'm thinking ground or relay. But what do I know?

Emanuel

AirCooledExcellence · AirCooledExcellence's Garage

Hi Emanuel,

Check the following:

Flat Battery?
Transmission Ground Strap.
All Connections to Starter Motor / Solenoid.

The high pitched whistle you can hear is the spark box, and is completey normal.

Hope this helps

Cheers,

Tim.
____________
1983 SC Targe

Early_S_Man · 04:02 AM

Emanuel,

It has tro be something systemic ... common to everything in the electrical system, and not related to individual systems! A single relay couldn't cause those symptoms ... unless it was shorting out and causing major transients on the system bus, and had something like that occured

Major suspects are:

1. Battery terminals ...

2. Battery ground cable ...

3. Main positive cable to starter ...

4. Main positive cable to ignition switch ...

5. Alternator or regulator ...

6. Ignition switch ...

One thing needs further examination in your memory of the event ... when the headlights were flickering, did they go from normal and off, or normal and extra bright ... or a combination of normal, off, and extra bright?

chuckr · 03-15-2002, 04:12 AM

A fellow 83SC owner here in Austin had a very similar problem,
the high pitch you hear from the drivers side engine bay is your CDI box located beside your fuel filter and fuse panel.If this unit goes out you get a dead car.Some say that if you can hear it whine it is OK... not true, this one whined and was still dead.He had to have the car towed ! This is a 1983SC Coupe with 56,000 show room condition miles ! It stumped everyone!

epbrown · 03-15-2002, 06:16 AM

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I just woke up and went to look at the car again - the battery is almost completely flat now (lights, radio, and windows don't work anymore, and they did when I left it). The battery is only 2 months old and has been on a trickle charger since I drove the car (briefly) 2 weeks ago - either I got a bad battery or the alternator is dead. I thought I read somewhere that the alternator is only good for 60,000 miles. I'm at almost 83,000 now - is that likely?

Emanuel

bonedaddy · 03-15-2002, 08:12 AM

Alternators should last much longer than 60,000 miles--that's not to say it's out of the question. After checking battery connections, I'd check the battery itself next--just because it's almost new doesn't mean that it's good. You can have it checked quickly with an analyzer to see if it will accept and store a charge properly. If it checks out okay, then I would move on to check for the items that Early S Man listed.

Superman · 03-15-2002, 08:44 AM

I'd put the ignition switch at the top of my list of suspicions. I'd charge the battery, and then check each circuit (by installing fuses one at a time) to see which one is drawing all the juice that drained the battery. I'd surely examine the steering wheel column bushings and also examine the connection between the ignition switch and the steering column that is the steering wheel lock anti-theft feature.

epbrown · 03-15-2002, 10:27 AM

Supes, that was my suspicion for a bit when I felt the loose wheel, but...

I pulled the battery and took it back to where I got it. They tested it and it checked okay (and I got a good reading with my home voltmeter), and for $3 they quick-charged it as well. The car started right up. The characteristics of the way it died point to the alternator, but the alternator warning light didn't come on. It follows the normal method, coming on when I start the car and fading out after it starts charging, so the warning light does work.

The shop says part of the battery's warranty is that they'll check for a parasitic drain for free, but I've never heard of a parasitic drain that would kill a battery with the car running! The car's got no aftermarket add-ons that would do that - it's the same as it was when I bought it. It may be the worst-case scenario - a bad alternator and a parasitic drain. I'll check more into it tomorrow, now that the car's home, using your post and Warren's as guides. And by the way - the lights didn't get brighter, just flickered - but I'll check the voltage regulator as a matter of course.

I think since it starts with fresh charge that we can rule out ignition and starter problems, and go with purely electrical ones. Right now, the only thing I see is that the ground cable is somewhat frayed, but not much.

Once this is sorted, I've got to fix the steering issue - the column is completely free of the mounts that attach it to the dash underneath the tachometer. Getting the car home was a bit of an adventure!

Emanuel

Early_S_Man · 03-15-2002, 10:40 AM

Ask Jack Olsen about 'parasitic' drains that kill the electrical system while the car is running ... late at night in the middle of nowhere?

bonedaddy · 03-15-2002, 12:17 PM

You might disconnect the positive cable from your battery and put an ammeter in series with the + battery terminal and the cable to see what kind of current draw you have with everything off and with different circuits activated. If you see something out of line with what you would expect, it could narrow your search.

Just curious, when they tested your battery did they put a false load on it and check the draw down and recovery? A voltage reading while not under load won't tell you much.

Rich911E · Rich911E's Garage

A very similar thing happened to me and it was the voltage regulator (or at least that seemed to cure the problem). I was going down the highway and out of the blue, suddenly the lights went dim, the car started sputtering, etc. as you describe. It was not the battery because after sitting for a while, it had some juice (recovered) but it ran the battery dead in less than one minute.

I had the alternator tested and checked all of the fuses. I replaced the voltage regulator and it seemed OK ever since.

Rich

pwd72s · 03-15-2002, 01:27 PM

I'm thinking votage regulator as well. Hope so anyway, because have you priced a new Bosch CD unit lately? (choke!) BTW, thanks for the reminder. My batteries just started getting a little 2 amp tickle...I may have forgotten except for your post.

Rich911E · Rich911E's Garage

If you need a Bosch CD box, I have a spare one -- can't vouch for the condition but you are welcome to try it.

Rich

724doorE · 03-15-2002, 02:23 PM

Hey ep,

Check out your ignition switch. My 72 had a similar problem where the car would not start-no solenoid no spiny-spiny. Turned out if I played with the cannon plugs on the ignition switch it would start. The pins had a slight green tint to them so they were probably just a little dirty. It seems like everything electrical in the 911 goes through that switch, so don't ignore this possibility!

Hope you get it right by the 23rd so we can see that SC in person!

Dennis H.

72 911E

epbrown · 03-15-2002, 03:19 PM

Rich: thanks for the offer, I'll let you know.

Dennis: I'll make sure to check the iginition switch as well. Looks like this weekend is laid out for me. If it's not fixed, how about I tow it to Chris' place and we can all work on it?

Bonedaddy: yes, it was load tested as well. The folks at IL battery are pretty thorough and knowledgable. I learn more about batteries and eletrical problems every time I go there.

Emanuel

724doorE · 03-15-2002, 03:39 PM

Well, a ride would be more in order if I take my 72E, we could tow it with the wifes SUV, but I would be pressing my luck.... she barely let me go in the first place! I come from Hammond so if your on the south side we could do that if you don't get it fixed.

One thing I have figured out when it comes to 911's and that is that the electrical system can be suspect... at least on the early cars. Mine is 30 years old and I do have trouble with it.

Dennis H.

72 911E

724doorE · 03-16-2002, 05:44 PM

Hey Emanuel, wha'd you find out! Hope your out driving that SC around.

If your farting around working on it, I'd rather be there than here, I just spent all day puting in new copper plumbing for the kitchen... and oh ya watching Sebring. Thats why it took all day!

Dennis H.

72 911E

epbrown · 06:25 PM

The thing about me is, when I order up trouble, I always ask for the combo platter!

It's not the iginition switch. The mounts for the shear bolts that hold the steering column gave and the resulting play in the column pulled the ignition switch free - that's why the car died initially. I can reproduce the problem at will now - start the car and wiggle the column around and I get the exact same electrical freak-out and death I got the first time.

I've got nothing in my Porsche literature that deals with the shear bolt mounts - it may be a first. The Bentley book does mention how to replace the bolts, but there's no info on the mounts.

The battery drain was due to procrastination. The pedals were sticking when I first got the car out of storage, and I figured the pedal bushing had swelled and needed a rebuild; I even ordered the bronze bushing kit from Wayne. But the pedal stopped sticking and I put if off. Well, turns out the brake pedal was still sticking, enough to make the brake lights come on, but not enough to engage them where I would notice them dragging. So the brake lights were drawing the battery down. This is why the drain was intermittent: sometimes the pedal returned all the way, other times when I parked it stuck a little. The kicker - I tend to back into spaces, so I've never passed the rear end of the car after parking it!

Oh, and the turn signal/flasher thing is worn out and doesn't engage I've learned

So, first I've got to re-attach my steering column somehow, then rebuild my pedal cluster and replace the signal stalk. Then I'll proceed with the stuff I was actually planning to do this weekend (tune-up, oil change, new H4 headlight install).

Thanks to everyone for their advice and help!

Emanuel

Joe Bob · Joe Bob's Garage

Exact same symptoms happened to me....ended up being the alternator.

Z

83911sc · 03-16-2002, 06:52 PM

glad to hear you've got your problem diagnosed, sorry to hear that you've got a bit of more time under the flourecent garage light rather then under the sun in the targa ;-)

for a time/agravation saver: when you replace your turn signal / high beam switch, its a lot easier to attach the 4 spade connectors if you loosen the light switch from the dash so that you can see your connection points and also manuever the switch to make attachment of the connections. I just did this today, and think that I would still be under the dash if I didn't loosen the headlight switch.

Good luck

Adam