Retrofitting Air Conditioning

Roy M · 07-06-2001, 01:46 AM

Has anybody fitted A/C to a car not originally fitted with it?

I realise I need Brackets, pulleys etc and wondered whether I should get a complete unit from a Porsche model so that I got these or buy the best bits and sort the brackets etc later. Car is an 88 Carrera so could I use later A/C units (964 etc) and where do I run pipes. I assume I can run into the current fresh air blower system so wouldn't need new vents etc (although I have seen the threads on butterfly / Kuehl vents)

I know this is very general but want to think the thing through and buy bits as I can.

Thanks

Roy

john walker's workshop · 07-06-2001, 07:15 AM

too much work. too many holes to cut. too many pieces to find. too much wiring. i wouldn't recommend it.

Roland Kunz · 07-06-2001, 02:43 PM

Hello

Done several times. Best is to get a complete 87-89 system. 964 will not fit but all since 1969 can be fittet.

Try to get all including every rubber clamp and bolt. Also try to make templates for the cutouts. You also have to get the frontend blower base witch is welded to the pan.

Grüsse

john walker's workshop · 07-06-2001, 04:08 PM

roland, you're a masochist.

89911 · 07-07-2001, 12:55 AM

After all that work, you will have a car with "marginal" cooling capacity as is the case with my 89 3.2.

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8 9 9 1 1, The last of the line.

Roland Kunz · 07-07-2001, 07:31 AM

Hello

Compared to work in the pits it is a easy task. No burnt fingers or other injuries and after you worked on other mostly italian sport cars ( Well sport is relatet to unbelieivable to reach screws or working methodes *) you will like these easy things.

Most Porsches are simple base work and some stuff is a bit heavier.

Retrofitting is an easy task as you don´t have to search for the unknow problem. You have all the parts or organize them. then you rebuild all parts to optimum start working them into the body and thats it.
Not very much head scratching things and nearly all is logical and covered in the Repair manual and the spare part books.

Yes I think you are right you have to be a bit resitant against pain and it doesn´t pay back the things you hurt on the long run. When I was young I carried tranys alone and swaped them without help ( except the "Steinbock" lifter ) aside the race track in a parking lot to change the gears ( This is why I love the 914 so much as it was a easyer and the car was faster ).

Now with my old neck and the liver cell necrosis I can´t work that way anymore.

The good thing on the internet is that the others do the work and you know the "break" points. And when the people hit that point they think it is a high wall they never can jump over and then you just show that he has to stap aside and walk along the wall to open a door....very satisfying moment if that hapens.

After some full restos you fear nothing and there isn´t much impossible.

The trick is see the finised car and kick your own A´s to get startet and then keep on rolling.

That tricj is the daily buisynes for million peoples to make there income.
But milions dream to make there daily income on working at dream cars ( some are Alp dreams ) and get payed for that. So ywe must also go trough the low sides and the costumer is king. And royals are not to much interessted in the background.

If Roy ( Well that Royal wordgame will not fit here ) will browse the archives ( I think the search is still dissabled ) he will find some interessting stuff and pictures that will help to understand the task.

And yes the early 911 AC`s are not working like freezers. It is better then nothing but IMHO the Audis have the best aircondition on the marked. So get a newer Audi to cool down and drive your 911 hot ?

Grüsse

* One highlight is servicing a Ferrari 365 GT including renewing from all the belts ( with AC ) and renewing from the 8 brake hoses ( 100$ each ). Then you will understand why the best payed italian mechanics are very slim and have long fingers plus an extra ellbow and built in pliers. But I can tell you things about Maseratis, Lambos, Jaguar, TR, BMW, Mercedes......

dtw · 07-07-2001, 05:55 PM

Roland you are truly crazy. That's why we like you. I agree with you about fearing nothing w/complete restos. If you suggested to me 3 years ago that I drill holes in my 911, I would start to cry. Today I drilled two holes in my tub just for the convenience of lining up some panels with some nuts and bolts (I was too lazy to tack weld 'em).

Roy, Roland makes good points but factor in your skill and intimidation levels. It's sometimes hard to stomach ripping up upholstery and drilling holes and whanging away on your car with a big hammer. If you can swallow all that, and understand that your a/c when you're done will be lukewarm at best, go for it.

I can practically hear Bruce Anderson advising on this subject "I would recommend that you sell your current 911 and go shopping for the newest 911 you can afford which includes a/c." There is a reason why that guy is published all over the place...

-d

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

beagle911 · beagle911's Garage

I added a/c to a '75 911 originally not equiped w/ac a number a years ago. I purchased the complete unit from Performance Aire in Ca. The unit included pieces that replaced the knee pads with vents. In my opinion it looked OE. My local mechanic did the actual install. My wrench tells me it was a very straight forward process. Very good instructions are included. It was not inexpensive, $2500+ but to me
well worth it, making driving the car more pleasurable. I stuck w/r12. The newer rotary compressors do a good job. The folks at Performance are extremely helpful. Hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by beagle911 (edited 07-08-2001).]

Roland Kunz · 07-08-2001, 12:48 PM

Hello

Well restoration in the car scene means to return everything to factory fresh and each non factory hole doesn´t mater if rustet or drilles must be returned.

Now the factory did make changes for the AC in the body and my goal is to replicate what the factory did.

You also can go complette other ways to set up a AC but this means the car is a special one of and even if you stay within the Porsche rules ( Color codes, Screws, Prinziples ) not all mechaniks can follow my intention or just have to sit down and think over. If I work like the factory every mechanic will know where and how. Some even would never find out that it didn´t was a factory installation.

( Well just browse the old rennlist 911 board, the aircondition board or same mails here you will find out that I must be total crazy, well just hipp to be square )

The problem is you have to be competive with the prices and if you spend to much time detailwork it woun´t pay back.

This is the reason why most aftermarked AC instalations sometimes look like the butcher came and hammerd in the parts.

If Roy M is handy he can manage nearly 90% of the job. If he use blind rivets he can work to the final stage and then he has to evacuate and fill.

If he brwses my old contributions he will see some hints how to improve the complete system and the 87 on dashboard and some upgrades give 964 like cooling capacity. Only missing the better heatmix and the higher fresh air flow rate. The main goal is not to cool down fast but to lower the humidity and keep the temperatures to a normal level. If you cool down to much people will get ill or the dry air will make problems ( One is that your eyes will get unsharp and infectet on the long run ).

Well a good portion from the Porsche buyers are MD and Porsche followed there inputs. Now german doctors seem to be very strange compared to the costumer needs but who likes his medecine ?

Grüsse

Roy M · 07-08-2001, 11:47 PM

Thanks for all the help (and the interesting reading in the posts!)

I don't need an A/C which can freeze the air - I am in the UK rather than one of the hotter areas of the world. Rather I wanted to introduce a cooling edge to the airflow on the hotter days I drive on.

My idea was that I could put in compressor, condenser etc and plumb it into the centre vents which exist on my (later) dashboard, thus adding a cooling element to the system. This appears to be how the system in my brothers Renault Alpine works (or is supposed to work!)

The car is in great condition (3rd at recent concours) so I don't want to muck it about and I intend to be buried in it (actually not true - I am going to seal it in an inert gas atmosphere glass cube like those Ferraris in Modena(?) and I want to be put in a cardboard box and put in the refuse!) so I don't want to sell.

I am reasonably handy (with the british sports cars I have owned I had to be) but I think I will investigate a lot further if a lot of cutting about is involved.

Once again thanks for the help.

Roy

Roland Kunz · 07-09-2001, 01:04 PM

Hello

Depending on your MY 87:

One retangular hole in the trunk forward firewall, one large retangular cutout in the forward trunkfloor. On that hole will the sheetmetall ducting for the blower placed

One large hole in the forward footweel bulkheadf passenger side ( behind the floorboard for the intke ).

One small hole for the ac wireloom at the bulkhead behind the middle console.

One hole for the bulkhead vent.

A slight cutout on the rear engine shroud to clear the support rod.

Thats the "hard" part.

To fit the hoses you have to drill some 50 holes fro the clamps but you will allready find some on the hinges and clamp studs in other areas.

In a good equiped shop with knowledge this can be done in one day.
But sometimes you run into little problems. But not as head scratching as on british sportcars like the TR PiPi´s

Grüsse

hughsheehy · 07-10-2001, 11:19 AM

Hi,

I was looking at the same problem for the same model year - a 1987 Carrera Coupe. I moved from The Netherlands to Barcelona, which is a bit warmer, so my heated seats are not much use any more and I miss airco.

I have not found any retrofittable kits in Europe, but getting all the parts from a scrap yard seems to be reasonably possible (several in the UK that have the bits).

I did not want to sell and re-buy a different car as I have a nice reliable car with a full service history and I have very little time to go hunting so was looking to get the bits and have a local AC shop do the job (there is a shop just down the street).

If you go ahead and do this job I would love to hear the details.

One other thing. Vertex Auto in Florida claimed to have a kit in the works, which used lots of 928 parts so that it should run a lot cooler than an original fitting. I never got any good info from them though. I'm guessing that a kit would find good demand (Wayne?) with older cars. AC is a default in fiat pandas these days, and a proper system should be effective, not add a lot of weight to a 911, and would find a buyer here at least..

Hugh

Roland Kunz · 07-10-2001, 09:44 PM

Hello

There was a aftermarked unit in europe.
I think made by Diavia.

The Porsche AC system use slightly datet material. You can upgrade with new serpentine condesors or the newer high performance units. Also a wobble plate or rotary vabe will deliver more power.

Well I will look for some old posts.

Grüsse

Roland Kunz · 07-11-2001, 12:10 PM

orbmedia · 07-11-2001, 02:31 PM

I believe early 911's in the USA had their A/C systems "dealer installed". If you have ever seen one of these installations you will be horrified. I think there was alot of variability in the installation technique from dealer to dealer with the best installations being real butcher jobs.

Later factory air looks better integrated but since the 911 has the engine in the wrong place those hoses are so long.

hughsheehy · 07-12-2001, 09:56 AM

Wow,

that is a long list of threads that covered A/C in 911s!! I read through and it must contain almost every tip you could need. People are asking everything from really specific questions to the kind of dumb open-ended question that I am asking..

Still, it sounds as if there is a huge issue with getting a good job done. Are some people cutting big holes in firewalls without knowing exactly where to cut (exclusing Rolo - who seems to know everything there is to know about 911 A/C)? The prospect of cutting big, poorly planned holes in firewalls scares me more than a little.

Would the DIAVIA solution require fewer holes? Does it provide cooing in any way that would be recognised as A/C today? There is actually a DIAVIA shop quite near me, so maybe I'll go look at them.

Anyway, still an intersting topic.

Hugh

hughsheehy · 07-12-2001, 09:56 AM

Wow,

that is a long list of threads that covered A/C in 911s!! I read through and it must contain almost every tip you could need. People are asking everything from really specific questions to the kind of dumb open-ended question that I am asking..

Still, it sounds as if there is a huge issue with getting a good job done. Are some people cutting big holes in firewalls without knowing exactly where to cut (exclusing Rolo - who seems to know everything there is to know about 911 A/C)? The prospect of cutting big, poorly planned holes in firewalls scares me more than a little.

Would the DIAVIA solution require fewer holes? Does it provide cooing in any way that would be recognised as A/C today? There is actually a DIAVIA shop quite near me, so maybe I'll go look at them.

Anyway, still an intersting topic.

Hugh

Roland Kunz · 07-12-2001, 03:53 PM

Hello

Sorry didn´t had time to look at the threads just pulled them out of my history. ( I work offline and after loading 30 pages the IE5 freezes )

Cuting the holes can be done if you have all the parts on hand. Then you can make the mssuremends and go for by making a small hole to double check.

The hardest hole is the bulkhead sideway looking and the condensor fan intake.
Every else is just like waking trough your bedroom without light on.

The Diavia solution had different variants depending on the year and some installations where poor ( or fast ) made. Some where from good quality.

As the Diavia parts department is not orientatet to suport old things I would avoid them.

Just the background is I have a Diavia retrofit in my MY 90 Golf A2. The unit was made in 1998 and built in in 1999. The PO is a Bosche engennier and the unit got a special compressor and some other not usuall things but the rest is as all Diavias.

Now I miss the first fan speed. Just very short after the waranty finished ( exactly 5 days after ).
I did the usuall things and brought the car for Testing to Bosch. Now Diavia has no ducuments on the work and what color code they used. They look like Fiat colors. The resistor unit was good by messurement but I replaced it with a new unit to make sure ( 8 weeks delivery time from Italy and 80$ but Bosch gave me 50% off ). I spend some hours and $ on the fone and right now I think about going the full way and trash the italian made **** and make a complete new wireloom and all the other stuff I don´t like on that.
Now as I do have some good conections I hopefully will get some support from Bosch. But imagen you as a normal costumer.....
So Diavia is like any typical italian made thing working for people who can help themself or like to improve a meduium good made system. Right now I just don´t have the time and money to go for it.
A normal beginner will get to frustratet.

Back on topic:

Just keep on asking if you have any thing that flashes up.

Grüsse

hughsheehy · 07-13-2001, 05:25 AM

Funny about that "freezing" problem with IE5. I know a few people who hate IE 5 because it freezes up, and a few who have gone hunting to find why it does it. Unlike Porshce A/C questions, there seems to be no answer anywhere - even on bulletin boards - to why IE5 freezes.

On the A/C topic, i asked Performance Aire about their kits and they said they would email me some info.. let's see what turns up

hugh

Roland Kunz · 07-13-2001, 11:43 AM

Hello

The problem with micro**** is that they always improve things that they never worked out totally. They try to sale the new product and promisse to have debuged all problems and you see new problems.

The most funiest thing is; try to download your hotmail account with the actuall Outlook. I have asked some MSCE and no one could handle it. Commentar: Hotmail is anyhow the last mail account they would recomend.

But Bill Gates and his partner bought a 959 so they should know what quality is.

Wish they would make the 959 come true on the computer. Just a old beetle would do it.

Lets see how he will capture the marked with his new X consule.

Grüsse