Carrera Home Alignment Epic

[NoLift911]

Well it's that time to align and CB the car. I figured I would start a new thread that ended from here:

Carrera Suspension Update

Still lots of things to do but I want to get the ride height set and the alignment done. I figured I would post a step by step here of what and how (I know there are many threads on this) but each seems to be a little different. I am sure this thread will have alot of dumb questions from me as with my other thread. I will post pics and results and hopefully get feedback. Big thanks to Chuck at ER for answering lots more dumb emails privately, along with providing all the cool parts to make things easier.

All the details on the car are in the other thread so not to waste space here...my questions regarding the home setup (after reading as many articles as I could) I will ask here to get started.

First - I lucked out on some used Longacre scales which will be arriving anyday. So my first question is order. From what I gather I should corner balance, set ride height and align?

I know they all affect each other. I have sway bars with no drop links so it seems the best course is to keep them attached (23mm bar) front and (22mm bar) in the rear.

My garage floor is pretty level - but yes, it does slope downward for drainoff. I have a 6 foot bubble level so I intend to level with that.

For the slip plates I was going to use linoleum tiles, cheap and get disposed of after being greased. I also figured I would level with those? If the car itself is level I should be good?

So I guess after reading and looking at specs there is something I cannot wrap my mind around. I will do 60/40 track/street, so for the settings (since I am not concerned with tire wear since they will get old and need replacement before they wear out) I am thinking maybe 2-3k miles per year max. Pretty sure my next set will just be DOT racing tires Hoosier or R1 for both street and track.

Why not just go max camber all around, max castor in front and then set toe? What would be a good toe setting for a setup like that? I think with the ride height I am after slightly lower than euro, I need max camber for no rubbing issues. Front fenders are slightly rolled and will be more rolled soon.

So I need to perform some type of toe alignment - is there a cheap and simple gauge for this that I can get. I know there is the Home Depot PVC, aluminum bar, string route but if I had a small budget for a piece of equipment that would make things easier that would be ideal, as I would like for this to be repeatable without a ton of drama with a complicated setup, each time.

Anyway any input/feedback appreciated.

Finally a pic of the subject:

[aston@ultrasw.c]

First - I lucked out on some used Longacre scales which will be arriving anyday. So my first question is order. From what I gather I should corner balance, set ride height and align?

I know they all affect each other. I have sway bars with no drop links so it seems the best course is to keep them attached (23mm bar) front and (22mm bar) in the rear.

You covered a lot of ground so I'll start with these two.

Set ride height approximately where you want it. Make sure you have enough adjustment range in the rear. Set the rake 1 - 1.5 deg lower in the front.

Set alignment approximately where you want it.

As you say they all affect each other, so you must get all the numbers close. Then go around again and fine adjust.

Corner balance, sways attached in your case, as the links are not adjustable. Decide if you want to balance across the corners or across the front axle. Many track rats balance across the front axle to help prevent one side (passenger) locking up when braking in a straight line.

Corner balancing will change ride heights but if they were close when you started it shouldn't be by very much.

Now fine tune all the other alignments.

I know you mentioned slip plates but still take it for a good blast before you do a final check.

Once you start playing with CB and alignment you are never actually finished

[NoLift911]

Originally Posted by aston@ultrasw.c

You covered a lot of ground so I'll start with these two.

Set ride height approximately where you want it. Make sure you have enough adjustment range in the rear. Set the rake 1 - 1.5 deg lower in the front.

Set alignment approximately where you want it.

As you say they all affect each other, so you must get all the numbers close. Then go around again and fine adjust.

Corner balance, sways attached in your case, as the links are not adjustable. Decide if you want to balance across the corners or across the front axle. Many track rats balance across the front axle to help prevent one side (passenger) locking up when braking in a straight line.

Corner balancing will change ride heights but if they were close when you started it shouldn't be by very much.

Now fine tune all the other alignments.

I know you mentioned slip plates but still take it for a good blast before you do a final check.

Once you start playing with CB and alignment you are never actually finished

Thanks for the info - I gathered that I will never be finished - but I guess that is the fun. I need to reindex my rear torsion bars (thanks for quick change spring plates/tb's) I got each in opposite adjustment ranges in the rear, front seem to have lots of range in either direction so they are good.

What do folks use for weight I have Recaro PP so the base is pretty narrow and need to get 160lbs in there...bags of sand?

It sounds like you can make adjustments with the car on the ground (physically getting to the bolts) but do some people jack the car?

[NoLift911]

And away we go....



Thoughts - yeah I know little bit or work ahead ;-)




2456 for an 84 Carrera with a roll bar and half tank of gas.

Where to start first????

[dad911]

Corner Balance Calculator

LF & RR need to be raised, or opposite lowered.

[Canada Kev]

Is that the car or wheel that needs to be raised? If you raised the wheel/lowered the car, that corner's weight would go down, no? Or do I have that backwards?

[dad911]

Originally Posted by syzygy

Is that the car or wheel that needs to be raised? If you raised the wheel/lowered the car, that corner's weight would go down, no? Or do I have that backwards?

Raise the wheel relative to the car to reduce the force(weight).

[NoLift911]

OK - a little less diabolical

Still got a little more to go - one thing is my ride heights are getting low...like ghetto fabulous low...not sure how I wound up in that corner...



I have an issue on the drivers rear where I need more camber - I think I need to unload the sway bar to get the max...I had to basically disconnect the spring plates on the passenger side - but I got max. Missing about 1/4 inch on the drivers side.

I think I will have to raise things a bit but of course that will toss my numbers.

numbers with me in the car (160 lbs)

[NoLift911]

OK I think I am there.



According to the calculator these should be the ideal weights for my car.

Now on to my camber issue - then align.

[NoLift911]

Ride height at 24 1/4 front and 24 1/2 in rear...

I like it - not sure if I will having rubbing issues - I already know I got tie rod issues - they need to be way more level.

Couple pics:

[dad911]

Originally Posted by P-Dawger

OK I think I am there.

According to the calculator these should be the ideal weights for my car.

Now on to my camber issue - then align.

A suppose it's late to ask, but did you level the scales and disconnect the sways? Also, aligning is going to change the corner balance, you'll need to touch up.

[NoLift911]

Well a couple things there. Yes floor level. As far as disconnecting sways - I left them attached, there are no drop links so I will live with that.

Alignment is next so yes after ward I will recheck the corner weights.

Trying to figure out if I will keep this height. If I do I need more camber in the front, I think I am ok in the rear. Tough to figure out how much suspension travel I will get while it is inside the fender - don't want to burn the paint.

Also any thoughts on cutting down the bump stops in the shocks (Bilstein sport) I didn't see a height associated with wether or not they need to be cut.

Also my tie rods look like they are trying to give the gas tank a hug - bad angle.

I thought it was anything below 24 made tha an issue not 24 and above.

I have rack spacers but they are not cutting it.

[dad911]

I didn't read your suspension thread, but one of the most diabolically handling cars I had was an '87 that the PO lowered too much. Would bottom out braking, and not turn in.

I don't like to lower them much unless the struts/shocks & springs are stiffened.

[NoLift911]

So how low is too low? I am running 22/29 bars and full camber front and rear with 17's.

What other problems have people encountered with a low ride height?

[jomalkay]

great input, i currently am having issues with local shop, not sure if they really understand, got the side to side dead nuts but corners are way off. As i am not so close to reputable shop, think the best way is to just do it myself, rebuild the suspension, so think this is possible. Can you give me an idea of what you paid for the used set of scales? You interested is selling / renting the set you have?
Also, what tire sizes did you go with, i am at 255/40 17 rear and 225/45 17 front, around 25 / 25.5 in ride height.
Did you conquer the alignment process? any insight as this seems to be an issue with local shop as well.

[NoLift911]

The only way (unless it is a p-car specific shop) and you are friends with the mechanic to get an alignment to your specs that you are happy with is to do it yourself. Once you do you will never go back to a shop. The home methods are "as" if not better than a shop alignment.

It takes time - alot of it to get it right. I am still working with mine to get it perfect. But it is a great learning experience also.

Scales on ebay run around $400-$800 depending on type and condition - just need to keep looking.

[JP911]

With the sway bars connected (to unload stock bars: unbolt the collars at the front pan and remove the droplinks in the rear) and the scales less than dead-nuts level...that is each scale level by itself and in the same plane as the others...your corner balance results will be ballpark at best. There are many ways to achieve a perfectly level set of scales, but I just broke down and ponied up the cash for the Longacre rolloffs. As for setting toe, the best product is Smart Strings, but a pair of long aluminum angle and a pair of laser levels that disperse a vertical beam work great for me. Oh, and the absolutely level surface is essential for good camber values as well.

[euro911sc]

For camber pick up a smart camber triangle. Then put a very small pocket level that you use to make sure the smart camber is level for each measurement. It is so easy.

For toe I use the pvc pipes, strings, and jack stands. It is less than optimal so I am looking to go laser or smart string in the future.

Parker is so right. I did my alignment to spec I thought up. drove it. didn't like it. Changed things. drove it. got better but still was not happy. did this for about 5 iterations and now I am basically happy with it. If I had to pay a shop to do this I'd be in the hole $1000 or more. Now I can really say I have a good basic understanding about how alignment changes affect the car's feel. Do it your self. You will learn a ton and you do not really need to buy scales to do it. Search: tripod method and you will be close enough only a pro driver could tell it was not perfect.

-Michael

[jomalkay]

thanks again for the good feed back.
i am currently at ride height of 25 rear / 251/2 front, with this even ride height setting corners are at:
814 228
577 1086
side to side is ok at 51.5 left, 48.5 right, front to rear 38.5 / 61.5
corners are way out of whack. so looks like i need to raise LR & RF to achieve good balance. I have been told it is not a good idea to try to pre-load sways to assist in balance as it really can create havoc as the suspension geometry changes thru turns. With my current weights, looks like i would need to raise the 2 corners a lot, thus the overall ride height setting for each corner will be a bit crazy different. Am i missing something or is it a case of sacrifice semi-even ride heights to achieve good corner balance? sway bars remained attached on the first balance.
Parker, you seemed to have had some similar beginning settings, yet do have even ride height as well??
ran the calculator and came up with ideal weights of
535 506
855 807
Ideas, feedback, help?
John

[dad911]

If you want to keep the same ride height, you are going to have to change all 4 corners. Raise the two, and lower the opposite 2.

Don't preload the sways.