New Starter didn't turn over on 1 Occasion! Research shows "AC Relay" the problem?
 

This is the Wierdest yet for me! Went to the inspection Station and had to sit for about 30 minutes and got pissed and pulled out and argued with the Manager! (I was 2 cars from getting inspected and something happened to the test equipment and every other line went in and out while I sat there!)

After wearing them out they decided to test my car so the manager got in the car and NOTHING! He has to push me back then forward to so I could Bump start the car. The car when through emissions and as I drove home while rolling the car started with the key "Every" time!

The History is, one evening my wife went to move the car and the only noise I could hear with the Key all of the way over was a slight Buzz sound (sounded like from the Starter area) I bump started the car and put it in the back yard and replaced the starter with the New Light Permanent Magnet Bosch starter. This was done Monday Night when it was warm out. I drove it a few times and it started right up.

I then drove it to work today and then into Virginia to get the Oil warmed up and to the inspection Station a total drive of 10 miles. I had the idle set at 1200 rpms to help it be cleaner and wanted to keep the engine warm (high 40 to low 50's today) then the above happened after sitting still for 30 minutes.

Today even after I got home and went back out, the car turned over immediately and I put it in the back yard again

From what I can search and find out, there seems to be some relation of this kind of problem and the Relay in the Smugglers Box for the AC and putting in a separate relay but I do not understand the wiring or the full theory?

911 pcars posted this
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1321166260.jpg

47 Silver posted this
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1321122132.jpg

No Carrier posted both of these
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1320437569.jpg

No Carrier
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1320374168.jpg

Well so much for "No Carrier's" Idea. I completely removed the Relay and the Car never started Better!! Now to find out what PCAR's Idea is.

Dr. Walker, you have any ideas on "What" would cause the Starter to work 99% of the time and then NOTHING but a "Faint Buzzing Sound" at the rear of the car??

I hope I can maybe run the car and maybe get it hot enough to NOT Start and then trace the sound??

When you removed the relay you isolated the yellow wire to just the starting circuit.

I proposed adding another relay in the smugglers box to accomplish this while still having a working a/c system.

The yellow wire is a ground for the internal coil of the relay when you are not cranking and it "becomes" HOT while you are cranking.

-Adam

No Carrier, Are you saying that I could tape off the Yellow Wire and Add a Ground to the relay so the AC Would work AND no more trouble with the Starter??

The problem with doing it that way is the a/c won't shut off while you are cranking the engine over.

To add the second relay you need to connect a new ground wire to one of the new relay's internal coil terminals. Connect the yellow wire to the other side of the new relay's internal coil.

Then connect a ground to the new relay's common terminal and wire the normally closed terminal of the new relay to the old relay where the yellow wire used to be.

This way, when you crank the car over, It removes the ground to the a/c relay and disconnects the a/c while you are cranking.

Be very very careful if you decide to do this yourself. I don't think the "hot" wire going to the a/c relay is fused. :eek:

Make sure you have everything properly connected and follow the diagrams on the relay to make sure you are connecting everything to the right terminals.

In fact, It is probably a good idea to add an inline fuse to the hot sides of both relays.

Same question as Vincent. There has to be some reason why the "yellow" wire is used.

Does cranking the starter disable the AC when the starter is turning over? Therefore, allowing cranking juice to not flow to the AC unit? If you ground as Vince is thinking, then that defeats the purpose - but I like that idea.

Edit - Oops - timing issue on posts. Sorry.

Yes when you are NOT cranking the car, the yellow wire is a ground as it just goes through the starter solenoid coil and ultimately to ground. The solenoid coil is just a wire wound many times around a piece of ferrous metal that terminates to ground.

When you crank over the car the yellow wire becomes "HOT" with 12volts.

The ground to the a/c relay is no longer there so the a/c turns off. Since the A/C relay needs ground and a +12hot and a ground signal to work it disconnects as there are now two +12hot signals.

The coil on the starter solenoid is energized creating a magnetic field that pulls a metal contact inside the starter housing that connects the +12volts from the battery to the starter motor.

If I remember correctly, if you disconnect the yellow wire from the starter and check it with a volt meter while the a/c switch is in the "ON" position there will be +12volts (battery voltage) reading on the meter.

Attach the yellow wire to the solenoid and you can hear the a/c relay click in the smugglers box.

The yellow wire was used this was as a simple way to turn the a/c off while cranking.

Adding the relay isolates the a/c circuit from the starter solenoid circuit yet allows both systems to work as they should.

WOW!! I first have some testing to do to see for myself all of this happening. The way you explained it NOW makes sense on WHY it is part of the Circuit. My first thing to do is buy another Relay because something is causing this not to work as planned.

Second, from the way you are saying this, it sounds like you (Yourself) have not done the 2 relays but have worked out the Theory?? (Otherwise I think you would have posted a Pic and Know exactly what terminals get what wire) It sounds a little Technical and easy to make a mistake. I do not ever think I have tried to start any vehicle with the AC on and if what you are saying works out, then I "May" end up resolving my problem by grounding the Relay. The ONLY reason I say May is who knows if this is even what the problem is?? My thinking is to remove as many variables as possible. U da man NC

I Haven't actually wired another relay in my own car yet. I will be adding a fuse and another relay when I get around to it.

I was actually testing a new engine harness I built for my overhaul/efi conversion and while double checking my wiring when I figured out how this works.

I'll resurrect my old thread and post a diagram of the correct wiring when I do my own car.

Most relays have a diagram of their connections printed on them. It shows the two connections for the coil (one wire is ground the other is +12v It is preferable to "switch" the ground wire.) The connection for the "common" connection (the wire going to the device you are switching goes here) and either the Normally closed or normally open connection.

"Normally closed" is shown on the relay diagram with a straight line connection the common terminal. When the relay is energized, this connection is broken.

"Normally Open" is shown on the relay diagram with an open line going to the common terminal. When the relay is energized, this connection is made.

Hope this helps.

I don't think the relay is the problem. Read the post several times. Maybe I missed a detail.

Check..clean or replace the big ground between the engine and chassis under the car.

It may look OK. Probably original. They do give the starter problem you describe when not working well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133314867.jpg

Thanks DB I will do that "ALSO"!! It did feel like the Battery connection was bad and when I turned my lights on they did not dim at all so I knew it was not the Battery.

BTW, Your little Dolly looks a lot like mine. Using 2x4's and 2 turning and 2 not turning wheels.

Adam, I did see the diagram which is why I suggested simply running a wire to ground. I now see that it is on the other side of the "Coil" you mention or at least I think that is what it is!

Now to test everything I first think I will change the Engine Ground and reset the wires to the Relay and drive the car. I will show my wife how to disconnect the Yellow wire from the relay which I will make a mount for to make it easier to do this. Then replace the relay.

I see this relay on our Host Web site. It looks the same BUT has a Fuse. Is this what we are looking for?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...161510301-M206

if an a/c relay keeps it from starting, then that's a new one on me. if there's a relay in line with the yellow 50 wire that activates the starter solenoid, then someone put it there to try to overcome a problem like yours, instead of fixing the real problem. grounds, grounds, grounds.

the only ac relay that was on my 1977 that becomes triggered by the yellow ignition wire goes to the # 85 AC relay terminal in the smuggler's box

the yellow wire goes to a Y that's under the gauges in the trunk. One yellow goes to the starter and the other yellow triggers the relay into an open position so the compressor is disconnected when starting. The yellow wire going to the AC is parallel, not series

my interpretation may be incorrect and i can eventually post the Factory Workshop colored diagram if needed

Doc Walker, The Crazy thing is, My Relay in the Smugglers Box is Wired "Exactly" Like the Pic that Adam Posted. Tomorrow I will check the Current flow while I have my wife turn over the engine. Second, I am going to put the car up in the air and see if I can duplicate the No Starter turning over by Wiggling the Rear Ground Wire.

Last, I did put the AC on a few times while waiting to lower the engine RPM's. When going through Emissions I always set the Idle high about 1200 to 1300 RPM's because the year of my car dictates the test done while the car idles. I am learning a LOT more than I wanted to here :D:D

I did some testing today. Yes, The Yellow wire shows no current but when the Starter is turned over it does show current. I remounted the relay on a bracket and ground the Terminal that the Yellow wire was attached to and Everything worked.

Second, I fooled around the Ground wire and no disruption in the Starter turning over. I also saw that the Yellow terminal was loose on the starter, but can make no difference because it is not hooked up to anything

Now I am wondering if it is "Possible" that a Insulated Fuse could cause this? I am changing the Ground Strap. Any other Ideas of what caused this? Heat??

I went through all the no-turn-over blues years ago

new parts and cleaned connectors everywhere

finally said "screw it" and installed a momentary on Cole Hersee button in the engine compartment for those once in a million no-turn-over blues

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1323107384.jpg

You sound like my kind of person! (For the same reason I added a second Accumulator :D).

Exactly how did you wire this? Where did you get the Button it looks water proof. I am also thinking that a button in the rear will be nice when working on the car to boot!!

you can buy various water proof momentary buttons from West Marine Boat Parts, Boat Accessories, Sailing Gear and Boating Apparel or search the Cole Hersee site and then give the part number to West Marine

I used long strips of double wall shrink tube from Waytek Inc, Home page to buy fuses, circuit breakers, cable ties, wire and other electrical supplies By Waytek Inc.

I crimped and silver soldered marine terminals

I used Ancor marine 12 gauge wire from West Marine



The series line starts from a terminal placed on top of the battery terminal of the starter to the momentary button

The other wire from the button runs back to the "start" starter terminal


I didn't shrink the shrink tube tight around the wires. All you see is covered wires running along the bulkhead between the rear shock absorbers.

It looks stock

Thanks, Sounds like I will be ordering a few things. I cannot tell where you located yours? I Know is has to be on the left side Near the back to make it Accessible

I just bought a JT&T Starter Button rated at 60 AMPs also water proof I will mount it with Water proof ends and wire it in as soon as this weekend. My New Cable also came in so I will be replacing it and the Relay.

I also plan to check all of the fuses and relays in the Trunk to make sure none of them are involved! Thanks again for the suggestion and to make life easy when I need to turn the engine over without back & forth or a helper!

Amazon.com: JT&T Products (2681F) - 60 AMP @ 12 Volt - 40 AMP @ 24 Volt, Extra Heavy-Duty Dust & Moisture Proof Momentary Starter with 5/8" Mounting Stem and Neoprene Cap

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1323386440.jpg

Long Term Update. I replaced the Ground Wire at the Back of the car from the Transmisson to the Body, I replaced the Relay that uses the Yellow wire in the Smugglers Box AND I put in a 60 AMP Starter Button in the Engine compartment. Of course since I have done these things I have now never even had a HINT of a problem! I like the Big Starter Button because now when I work on the car and need to turn it over No Problem!.

BTW, My Starter Button looks like the one above

with ignition on and using the engine comp starter button I turn off the radio and my CHT/EGT computer as accessories are still on line. Low voltage with starter engaged may cause a problem?

the ignition switch has accessories to a different leg than the "start" leg


enjoy

I had to read this about 4 times before I totally understood WHAT you were trying to tell me. The first read I was thinking that I could somehow jam up the starter. On the 3rd read I realized that you are saying to "Keep from Damaging the "Electrical Equipment" (Like in your home with Surge Surpressors) make sure it is all turned off because the battery drain causes the Voltage to drop while turning over the engine!

I am getting a new battery for my van that has a bad cell. The only way you can tell is to use a Voltage meter on the battery and watch it while turning it over. I see the Voltage go from 12.4 to 10.3 volts which cause cause a problem!

Thank you

Interesting post. Three times over the past three days, once after sitting overnight, once after sitting two hours, I got the same hum from the starter. I've done zero testing so far, but on each occasion, letting the car roll seemed to fix the issue.

The first time, I pushed the car out of the spot, intending to use the slight incline to bump start the car. Getting back in the car, the key worked, so I didn't have to. The next time, I let it roll two inches backwards, tried the key again and it started. This morning, I let it roll two inches forward, and it started right up.

I guess I'm actually doing three things. First, I'm releasing the hand brake. Second, letting it roll 2-3 inches. Third, I'm applying the brake to stop the roll. Puzzling.

I put it on jack stands yesterday to look over for loose connections, etc., and everything looked normal and felt normal. This morning, it started first try, but I swear I heard a little of the "clicking solenoid" for half-a-second before it engaged and started. So brief, I barely noticed it.

1982 911SC

Smart reuse of an ole toilet plunger :D

Easier than fussing with the OEM 2 part boot.