1973.5T converted to Weber carbs -> turn back to CIS?
 

Folks,

I am in the market for an original 1973.5T Targa and have found a nice, solid one.

I am struggling with the fact that the PO has converted the car to Weber carbs, though - I was really looking for an original, unaltered car.

What is the collective genius' take on
- how far this conversion makes it a non-original car, affecting resale value in the long run?
- what it takes to turn it back to CIS? How much effort is that?

I appreciate your comments - the more, the merrier!!

Il trade you a complete cis system for your webers.

John, nice try :)
I do understand that the value of a set of Webes might be higher than that of a CIS system, but I was wondering how much effort it is to switch back to CIS.

Have you verified the engine serial number and transmission to the chassis?
Besides the webers were there any other engine modifications? Does it have the stock cam, pistons, distributor?

I am no genius by any stretch of the imagination, but there are plenty here to assist. I do, however, own a 73.5 T Targa. The car is notable in that this was the introduction of the CIS and, as such, it has some parts unique to this particular year (read: difficult, if not impossible to find). Nevertheless, CIS components from later years as well as later gas tanks can be modified to work the with the 73.5. Obviously going this route technically would not return the car "original, unaltered," but seldom are cars this vintage wholly original. Although not original to the car, the Weber carbs I would consider a period modification and because they are desirable to many, I don't think would be detrimental to resale value. Some might consider it added value. If you like the car, it's solid, and checks out through a PPI I'd recommend going for it.

Seller claims that the car is numbers matching (engine + transmission). Haven't verified it in person yet, as I've been struggling with the Weber coversion.

Besides the Weber carbs, the engine has been modified to 2.7l with European pistons/cylinders and E cams.

Having owned three 73.5 CIS cars I can attest to the tricky nature of part hunting to keep them going...

You really need to find out how much has been changed before you go down that road, even the gas tank is unique and difficult and to source. Without knowing what exactly has been changed for the carb conversion it's hard to say if it's worth it to change it back...

If the motor was opened up and the cams were changed to something more weber friendly, I'd say leave it as is.

Ferg

Opps you beat my to my post. If it's now a 2.7 with E cams, leave it alone.

Uh, well with the revelation of that information, with respect to originality and alterations the fuel delivery should be of little to no concern.

I second Ferg

...just to clarify: "leave it alone" as in "don't think about turning it back to cis" or as in "don't bother buying because this car is no longer original"

Meaning the $ involved to turn it back is greater than the value added by turning it back. Unless we are talking about a full resto show car.

Thanks for clarification. And no, this is not a concourse show car. More like a decent, solid weekend driver.
Now back to work...

Not to speak for Ferg, but I agreed assuming his statement meant "don't think about turning it back to cis."

The engine has already been bored out from its original 2.4l, has different p&c and cams that were presumably matched to the Webers. It is no longer original or unaltered. Replacing the carbs with CIS will not make it original or unaltered with respect to how it left the factory and will likely result in poor performance and will certainly prompt the question of "why" from everyone.

The 73.5 is a tough car to bring back to original considering the 1/2 year only parts it needs. The 73.5 fuel tank, cis system, pistons, etc. are unique. It is very difficult to even get a set of rings. One Pelican's thread on a top end rebuild shows some of the issues. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/625423-1973-5-2-4-cis-top-end-rebuild.html
The parts are out there, but can be expensive. I have been lucky finding parts at decent prices, but it takes a while if you don't want to pay high prices.

^^^^ makes tons of sense to me.

Which still begs the question in how far those mods make this particular car uninteresting for potential buyers looking for an original, unmolested car. Personally, I am not particularly "religious" about those changes. On the pther hand, I dont want to find myself in the situation trying to sell the car (much) later again and everyone looks at me like I was trying to sell a modded hot rod for the price of an original car. You see my point?

a "T" is the lowest, least expensive model for the early cars

also, most people, including me, get rid of CIS whenever they can

I doubt it would make a big difference in the price to have Webers, and it might well make the car easier to sell down the road someday.

that year car is exempt from Calif. smog -- if you are concerned about emissions, then make sure the vapor emissions system works; if very concerned then convert it to EFI which is much cleaner

kp.sfo,
You saw what I wrote about the 1973 in the Market Place forum.
If concerned about resale, then it makes a lot of difference. I have to disagree with RWebb on a few things. On 1973 and earlier originality makes a huge difference in value. While the "T" is the least expensive, I have read where the 1973.5 is considered to be in the top 10 due to it's drivability. Very good examples are over $30,000.
I looked at his garage and see a heavily modified 1974. There is a big price difference between the '74 and later cars versus '73 and older. That year is probably worth more with modifications. Modified and rarity of solid early cars make the few unmolested cars worth more. Every time someone alters the engine like your example make mine worth more.
While this is not the Early S Registry where some are more fanatical about original, I don't like the idea of hurting a nice collectible to make a track car. Yes, I put Weber's on my 2.4, and later put an '86 3.2 in my car. It was great to drive with the added torque and horsepower, but I still have the original engine, transmission and cis. Two days of work and I can bring it back to original with an engine change. The engine modifications done to the 1973 you mentioned would lower value. It is probably a great car to have fun with, but on resale it would be a modded hot rod worth less. It is possible though to pick up a running 1973 cis engine for a reasonable price for the original parts though. Depends on how modified the case is on the engine in the car.
Even modified, many still like the look of pre impact bumper cars, so it will still have value.
Good luck in your search.

If you need a CIS system I have an extra one for a 73.5.

Carl, thanks for the lead. If i would only have been fast enough to buy your silver 73.5T Targa a few weeks ago I wouldn't have to worry about all this now :(

Ed,

Thanks for your perspective - much appreciated as always. I am following your train of thought here, still needed some sort of reassurance from others... Bottom line for me: One more lead to file...

most T's will not bring $30,000*, but the relevant question here is whether a stock T with CIS is worth more (or less!) than a properly done conversion to carbs

and that assumes that the only thing you care about is the potential sales price of the car, and you are indifferent to driving enjoyment

you could always sell the car with carbs a box containing the CIS components

if you plan to be buried in your car it does not matter


* I will try to remember to look up and post some factual information on pricing when I get home tonite

Regarding the thought of returning the engine to CIS: The CIS will not like the E cams. CIS requires cams with very little overlap due to the metering characteristics of the air flow metering plate. There are pressure waves traveling back up in the intake with cams that have significant overlap, such as the E, that mess with the proper operation of the metering plate. The E cams are better suited to carbs or mechanical injection, or for that matter, EFI.

Bruce Anderson's survey data show that for a 911T to sell for north of 30k it has to be a car in excellent condition.

What is the condition of the car you are looking at? Where would it place in a Concours?

I just purchased a very original, 73.5 911T targa that had been sitting in a garage for 20 yrs with the motor & transmission out. I will rebuild the motor and might decide to go with webers just because I like them, but I will also keep the CIS parts. It was originally Sepia Brown and later painted red. It will get repainted, but maybe not Sepia. If I change the color, I will use a Porsche color. When it comes to originality and value, I think as long as the changes to originality are upgrades or period options/equipments, the value will be similar to a 100% original (not survivor) car.

Cis
 

My thoughts on this particular issue, If the car was an "S" or an "E" then I'd be more concerned with the originality issue. Since the engine has already been altered, then the Weber vs CIS issue is moot ( IMO ). Yes, I know there are no "S" & "E" CIS 73.5's.

I'd buy a Redbook to confirm the engine / trans #'s and to have on hand for future reference.

Additionally, have you researched the person selling this car? There's a few "shady" dudes operating in the SFBay area..........I know, they are in every City / Town in the Country but I personally got burned by fast classics / Born2Bfast / Sears Point Classics in the SFBay area. I wish I had done my research back then.

Steve

73 911 T MFI Coupe, Aubergine

my take is that unless - EVERYTHING is original / OEM, then dont bother. It also wouldnt make it a deal breaker as its already built into the price of the car. Doubt you are paying 30k for that car. More like 20k max. Its a T which makes it hard to recoup your money anyway, putting CIS back on the car ($$$) when there are other things like the P/C and cams that are not original doesnt make sense. There are probably other bits you dont even realize that were removed as part of the PO's "upgrade".. so you dont want to spend a bunch of money only to hear someone say.. oo geez thats not an original car.. its missing x and y and z... What I would do is probably over a period of years try to collect all the missing bits so that when you do try to sell you have them. If you want a 30k T then plan on spending alot more than 30k.

The 73.5 2.4L engine had the injectors in the cylinder head rather than in the intake runners.

When the engine was converted over to carbs, did they change the heads too with all the other work?

I agree, CIS will not work well with the engine modifications that have been done.