"I just proved your statement plain wrong."

Hardly!!!!!!!!!!!!

The maps have been modified in one ECM and NOT the other, i.e. That the real effect.
The effects (whatever they are) are NOT the result of just the 'box' (the electronics),
but how the ECM was tweaked. Basically any 'box' can be tweaked to show the
same results.

Bottom line: Do a search and read the posts on Rennlist about using Motec versus
Motronic and the BS about how Motec makes more power on a 964.

I think he's saying that its very rare for an AFM to fail to the point that the car wont even run, where MAF's go out all the time. Anyone here own a Ford? ;)

Loren,

I have always been under the impression that the circuit trace that the barn door wipes on has failed on higher mileage cars, or cars with out of ordinary wear patterns. This, along with a new replacement being hard/expensive to source would promote a change to a MAF type sensor.

If "nothing is really gained by just using another engine management
system" why do we need a Systems Consulting
Automotive Electronics type person, just keep using the old stuff that works fine.

Precision, and quicker reaction times have got to be better, if not in for increased HP, then better driveability/economy.

**I am speaking from the forced induction side**

Loren, I am ok with how crude the maps are on the Motronic and how they are not programmable. That is fine.

What I am not fine with on my car is the fact C3.2 DME's have NO diaganostics!I've spent like 3-4 months trying to diagnose my car when it took less than 5 minutes on my old 996.

Make a cheap diagnostic addition to the C3.2 DME and I'll be all over it...............if the price is right! :)

You can buy a full MegaSquirt kit for like less than $200-300 that has way more control and functionality over the Motronic system.

I know that thread. And I understand your point. Maybe I did not understand your post completely or maybe you did not explain it properly.

But your statement:

...says pretty clearly that with only engine management change one would not gain significant improvement. I would say that 14 kW (that's ~20 rwHP) on a car that makes 250 hp in stock form is pretty big improvement if you ask me.

And that is not taking into account the fact that standalone is easily tunable, you can do it quickly and with excellent results. Did I mention that many good standalones have integrated WBo2 circuits which make tuning even easier?

Enough really smart people have explained about the AFM not being an airflow restriction that it seems pretty clear that isn't the case. 3500 rpm and it is wide open, there you go...

The one place where I would think that a MAS would be a good modification is with wildly changing altitude. The altitude sensor on the Carrera is obviously a kludge to deal with air density.
What do you think of using a MAS setup when someone is running up and down mountain passes or other extreme altitude changes?

When I eventually switch to an aftermarket ECU one of the main drivers will be fuel economy. My '90C4 runs pig rich, I get 17-18 mpg, and drive ~15k a year. It won't take long to pay for the ECU.

Can't help it. But here is a confirmed 17HP from a chip on a 964. Flip a switch and run on the dyno before and after. Delta is 17HP.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/130192-no-bad-days-performance-chip-first-impressions.html

Let the discussions begin,.... :D

I have to stop piddlin' on the other forum... this is some gooood P-debate!

Maybe start with checking the O2 sensor. Hook up a Hammer or PST2 and verify the O2 regulation loop is in feedback and the sensor is not dead or too slow.

the bottom line here folks is that if you completely change the platform (AFM vs MAF), ECU, timing, injector settings, then its going to be hard to atribute the positive gains to one component.

The purpose of my original post was to present an ALTERNATIVE solution (for forced induction conversions) to the OEM BOSCH DME by using a drop-in PROGRAMMABLE EMS that would eliminate the restrictive barn door AFM. It's well known that the barn door AFM introduces turbo lag, and affects throttle response in our turbo conversions. It's a mechanical device that will wear and fail over time under the abuse of a forced induction setup. I went through 3 AFM's with my turbo setup.

This drop-in aftermarket ECU offers a much more attractive solution when compared to a Protomotive CHIP & FPR combo (which is more of a generic tune) for 3.2 turbo conversions. It's also much cheaper than doing a fresh Motec/Autronic ECU install, because it uses all the existing wiring and sensors. I was quoted $7k - $10k to install/tune one of those products! :eek:

If you want the option and flexibility of tuning an EMS to your specific motor, then this is a pretty darn good product IMO.

Hmmmmmmm

Did anyone ever give this a try?

After reading the Installation Manual for Canem's drop-in ECU I think this product, from a concept view, could provide a solution (programmed pulse width's and timing adjustments vs. a simple rising rate regulator) for those of us having forced induction on our 3.2's. Whether your using AFM, MAF or MAP could be debated based on personal choice or technical logic; what ever floats your boat.
From my experience there are pro's and con's with either AFM or the alternatives (MAP, MAF or whatever).

What I found 'interesting' is that Canem seemed to cover all the bases, and with only a first-reading of their manual it was obvious they understand their market; plenty of "why and how" for the DIY.

Starting at $1500 (US) .... I'd say that is smart value if you want something that quickly gets you down the road with a very short learning curve; however if you want to tinker and play 'enginear' on weekends there are other alternatives.

What will be naturally interesting is over time what end users have to say with regard to reliability, technical & customer support.

The difference between men and boys is the price of their joys.