Electrical Gurus Please? Flag mirror issues
 

Hello:
Background - 83 911sc, still working on getting some 86-89 flag mirrors hooked up and running. I've read every single post that I can find in the forum related to flag mirror wiring, but nothing for my issues.

My question are:

1) on the toggle switch operation for moving the mirrors directionally.

I have a white wire off the switch that goes to the mirror that I believe is supposed to move the mirrors horizontally. When I check voltage off this wire while moving the joystick, I get 12.6 on both left and right, nothing up and down.

I have blue wire off the switch that goes to the mirror that I believe is supposed to move the mirrors vertically (?). When I check voltage off this wire while moving the joystick, I get 12.6 while moving the joystick down and right, but nothing up and nothing left... I would have expected to get 12.6 on both up and down and nothing left or right.

2)Finally, when I hook the mirror itself up I can actually get left/right/up/down movement off the mirror (depending on the other wires I hook up from the mirror), but never only left and right, or up and down. and it only works off the blue wire referenced above...not when I try to power off of the white wire mentioned above...

Can someone who's good with this stuff help me out? It would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you very much ahead of time.
Christian

Hi Christian,

Sounds like your wiring is operating correctly for an SC.

1) The white wire tells the mirror whether you are in the up/down or left/right plane.

The blue wire is one half of the motor drive circuit. The black wire is the other part.

When you get nothing on the blue it is because the black will be 12.6v and the blue is ground (or negative).

2) If your later flag mirrors have two separate drive motors, then the SC wiring is not compatible with those mirrors. There are some threads that talk about a relay that separates the existing SC wiring into two separate motor circuits.

Basically when the white wire has no voltage the blue and black drive one of the motors (say left/right). When the white has 12v a relay sends the blue/black motor drive to the up/down motor.

Thank you very much Jim, I really do appreciate the response. I believe that my car has been updated to take the newer mirrors based on the way everything is wired, but I could be wrong on that...
I'll get out an play with it some more with this information.
Thank you again Jim,
Christian

Do you have a black/yellow wire off of the switch?

Hi Arbita, I have the black and yellow off the switch from passenger to driver mirror... that black and yellow runs to the driver's side only...

Hi,

One of the motor drive circuits is Blue + Black/yellow for the drivers side and blue + black for the passenger side.

The key is the second motor circuit. If it comprises the white + brown in the way you have described, it sounds stock. That is not necessarily a problem. If it worked at one time, there is the possibility that the later flag mirrors themselves may have already been modified with the inclusion of an additional relay.

How did you end up with the later style flag mirrors? Did you remove the original SC flag mirrors? Did they work previously?

Hi Jim,
Thank you. I bought the car in '99 and the mirrors never worked. It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I decided to tackle the many electrical issues with the car. When I pulled the mirrors, the harness was hanging free as bare wires in the door and I determined that the mirrors corresponded to the 87-89 mirrors that our host sells (944-731-027-01-M415).
When I compare the wiring of the car though, it doesn't itself compare to what Bentely has for the 83. In Bentely, the 83 doesn't appear to have a switch over from driver to passenger...at least the wiring diagram in the manual doesn't have a switch. That led me to believe that my car had been updated? As I look at it, it appears to be some kind of hybrid between what I have seen from the Bentely manual for 84-85 and 86-89.
The switch from driver to passenger in my car has 3 prongs: 1 - black yellow goes to driver mirror, 2 - blue goes to passenger mirror, 3 - green goes to toggle switch.
Here actually is all of the wiring for the mirrors that I diagramed out (the numbers in parenthesis are the ones that I think connect to one another):

Toggle Switch Connects To:
brown (2)
blue (1)
green (3)
white (4)
black with purple stripe fuse

Driver Side Harness in door
white X 2 (4)
blue (1)
black (5)
grey with green stripe (6)
black with yellow stripe (7)
brown (2)

Left/Right Switch
green (3)
blue (8)
black with yellow stripe (7)

Passenger side harness in door
brown (2)
blue (8)
white (4)
grey with green stripe (6)
black (5)

Drivers side harness in trunk
white (4)
brown (into middle of harness) (2)
black (5)
green (3)
grey with green stripe (6)
black with purple stripe
black with yellow stripe (7)

Passenger harness in trunk
blue (8)
white (4)
black (5)
grey with green stripe (6)
brown (not in middle of harness) (2)

Hi Christian,

Sounds a lot like what I found when I looked at my non-functioning mirrors except mine were the later aero mirrors.

Could you confirm the part number of the toggle switch that is fitted? There are two types. You will also see a color code on the switch. Some pins have two colors so the factory must have had a few loom changes.

Hi Jim,
I had a look and there is no actual part number or color coding on the directional mirror toggle switch...is that what you were referring to? The only writing on the switch is:
IKJ Made in Holland

Are you referring to the wires going into the switch?
Brown X2
Green
Blue
White
black with purple stripe fuse

Hi Christian,

Could you confirm your left/right switch colors.

You have listed them as:-

Left/Right Switch
green (3)
blue (8)
black with yellow stripe (7)

Is the blue correct or should that be black?

Hi Jim,
Thank you. Yes, I understand why you are asking the question. The wiring diagram for 86-89 shows the left right switch having two blacks off of the switch, one to each mirror. Another reason I think that mine has been tinkered with...

I tested the continuity off of each of the wires...there is a blue and it does go to the passenger side only. and the black/yellow only goes to the driver side...

I should also mention the mirror coloring coming off of the mirror motor:
brown X2
Black
White
White with brown stripe
Brown with white stripe

Thank you for your help Jim!

Christian

Hi,

I can see why it is a bit of a challenge!

Best start at the toggle switch. The blue and green are the two wires that form the main motor drive circuit.

I suggest you do some continuity checks to find out what colors they become at the drivers side mirror connection. When you connect these two wires to a motor you should be able to drive the mirror up/down or left/right - depending on which motor you connect to.

It looks as though the green wire becomes blue (at the left right switch) and returns to the drivers side mirror. Blue is not listed in your drivers side harness in trunk so there must be some wire swaps. I would ignore the brown and grey/green stripe for the time being. They should be your heater/defog circuit (with any luck).

My '78 Targa and my '88 Carrera have entirely different mirror motor drive mechanisms internally. I seem to remember having to use a relay inside the mirror housing when I installed later version ('88?) mirrors on my '78.

As I remember it the '88 has individual drive motors for each motion, vertical vs horizontal. The '78 uses a single motor with a solenoid escapement.

I also seem to remember that part of the problem was that turning on the rear window and side mirror heat would result in the driver side mirror being driven downward.

Hi,

I agree, had to do the same thing with my SC to get the aero mirrors to work. Ultimately I think a relay will be needed but cwinters01's wiring seems to have been messed up by the PO. Some investigation is needed to work out the baseline, so the mod can be made to a known wiring arrangement.

Once the basic functions work, a relay can be added that will be triggered by the white and brown circuit to switch the motor drive to the other motor.

Hi Jim and WWest, thank you very much. Such great information and I greatly appreciate you taking the time! I'm likely not going to get back into the car until Sunday (legoland tomorrow with the boy), but I will now check out where the green and blue leads to in the driver side door wiring and report out.
Thank you again and Happy New Year to you Gents!
Christian

Hi Jim,
I took a look at the green wire that runs from the directional toggle to the driver/passenger mirror switch. Current runs properly between the toggle and the switch based on the wiring diagram for a 86-89 mirror (below).
Based on the diagram, I think that I have all the right wiring for the 86-89 mirrors, I just can't seem to get all of the wiring in the car to work with the mirrors themselves...
1)Green from toggle goes to driver/passenger switch
2)White off of toggle to driver side door, then crosses over to passenger side door
3)Blue off of toggle to driver side door, then connects to a black that crosses over to passenger side door
4)Black with yellow stripe runs from driver/passenger switch to drivers side door
5)Blue from driver/passenger switch goes to passenger side door
6)Brown from toggle goes to drivers side/ground...
7)Black with violet stripe goes from toggle to fuse

How to hook all this up to the mirror wiring is my problem. Mirror wiring: BrownX2, White, Black, Brown with white stripe, and white with brown stripe...?
Below is also a picture of the motor for the mirrors that match the part number for the 86-89 mirrors...shouldn't these be the right mirrors to work with the wiring above and in the shown diagram?
Hopefully my uploads work and thank you for your help!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325532658.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325533188.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325533226.jpg

Hi Christian,

Below is a diagram from the 944 manual which is a better match for your mirrors.

I don't trust the Bentley diagram. The first picture clearly shows two mirror motors which means that your mirrors will not work with that wiring config.

There is also another thread running at the moment on 964/993 aero mirrors which is looking at the same type of thing.

I will draw out the circuit and send it to you later today.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325541441.jpg

Hi Christian,

Based on the information in your posts and the 944 style mirrors, I have drawn what I think is the arrangement. You will probably need to experiment with swapping the mirror motor wires around to get a good match between the toggle and motor direction. Based on the information I have, the wiring arrangements are my best guess.

I think you will need a small 12v coil Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) relay to make it work properly and I have shown it in the circuit just after the toggle switch (left hand side of drawing).

If you don't want to modify the loom in the drivers door, you can add two relays, (one at each mirror) to achieve the same ends and maintain totally stock main wiring.

To test it, wiring it up without the relay and white wire connected. You should be able to move the mirror in one direction (either up/down or left/right) on each door.

Jim,
I really can't thank you enough! Absolutely above and beyond the call of duty...I sincerely owe you one.
I don't mind adjusting away from stock wiring. It appears that I can order the "12v coil Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT) relay" online, so I'll get one ordered.
Based on what you have drawn, I see that the blue off of the toggle hooks to the switch on the new relay. The white attaches to one end of the coil and brown to the other.
My question is on the brown wire. That brown should just be the brown dropping into the door harness from the toggle, right? And are you saying to split it off so that one split goes to the relay coil, and the other split goes to the driver side mirror?
Apologize for stupid questions...there is a reason that I put off all electrical until now...
A sincere thank you again Jim!
Christian

Hi Christian,

Ok, I could have been clearer on that one. I've mixed the toggle and mirror wiring a bit.

The Browns should be at the mirror for the heating circuit so don't worry about them. You can access the brown wire at the toggle switch. I soldered a new brown wire to the existing spade connection going to the toggle switch and attached it to the relay. You don't really need to cut the white and blue, you can just disconnect them from the toggle and put new wires in to connect to the toggle.

I placed the relay about 6 inches below the toggle and encased it in heat shrink (after it all worked).

Good practice is also to add a diode across the relay coil which I have on my relay but it didn't make it to the diagram. You can add that as a last step.

Hi Jim, thank you very much! Man the brown wire comment still has me a bit confused. There are two browns coming off the toggle (my wiring way up above neglected a "X2") Are you saying to solder another into one of those?

sorry about that. My toggle has one brown on pin 2 and one brown on pin 4. The two pins are connected internally (inside the toggle). I connected to the one on pin 2.

If one of these pins is vacant, just check the continuity and connect to it. Otherwise just connect to the existing brown a little lower down. 3 sounds like too many for one pin.

OK, thank you very much Jim! I'll give it a go as soon as I get the new relay!
Thank you again my friend,
Christian

Jim,

Buddy, you absolutely nailed it!!!! I got the relay this week and just did a test fit, and it works absolutely perfect!!!

Man, I can't thank you enough for all your help. When will you be in San Diego? The beer is on me, my friend!

Thank you so much again,
Christian

Hi Christian,

Excellent news, glad I could help. If I get a chance to get there in the near future ill take you up on that beer.

Hi Jim (or anyone else that might know), time to pick your brain again... After getting everything back together a couple of weeks ago, I discovered an issue that I didn't notice as I was testing.
When I move a 'selected' mirror, the other mirror moves just slightly too, but definitely in a much weaker way. Happens when either mirror is selected.

I pulled all of the wiring back out of the door to make sure that something hadn't happened to it when putting the door back together...everything is as I left it.
I tested the relay with another, and that wasn't the problem...or I should say the same issue occurred. I tested the selector switch with a new one that I purchased and that didn't fix the problem. Finally, I tested the toggle switch with a new one that I purchased and the problem still occurred.

One thing I noticed, and I have no idea if this means anything at all, but when I pulled the wire associated with the passenger side mirror from the selector switch while at the same time having the selector 'on' for the driver side mirror, I still get movement in the passenger side mirror when I move the joystick. But when I pull the wire associated with the driver side mirror from the selector while at the same time having the selector switch 'on' for the passenger side, I get no movement in either mirror.

The way I have wired (which I think is exactly how you have diagrammed?):

Relay Connections:
White from joystick to relay
Blue from joystick to relay
Brown from joystick connected to brown from mirrors and hooked to relay
Blacks from mirrors connected and hooked to relay
White/brown from mirrors connected then hooked to relay

Selector Connections:
Green from Toggle goes to Selector
Black/brown from driver mirror hooked to white from driver mirror connects to black/yellow that goes to selector
Black/brown from passenger mirror hooked to white from passenger mirror connects to blue that goes to selector

Obviously I have something hooked up wrong…is there anything glaring to you from what I have written?

Thank you very much for your help as always.
Christian

Hi,

I suggest you disconnect the mirrors and do some continuity checks to understand how the black and blue wires are connected. The blue wire at the drivers side mirror for some reason becomes black when it emerges at the passenger side. The left/right connection to the passenger side is blue when it should be black. As these colors are key to the left/right change I suspect the PO has done some internal loom changes. If the blue at the left/right is connected to the blue at the drivers side that would complicate things even more.

OK, thanks much Jim. I'll give it a go.

Hi, I had a look at my car and I think you are onto something. Mirrors are adjusted so rarely that I missed the slight movement. In your case I think either the loom has a problem or the changeover switch has a wiring issue. It should be doing the same thing on both sides. The motors moving slightly is a circuit problem. Ill have a look tonight and figure out how to fix it. Its nothing major just need to tweek it a little.

Hi Christian,

Looking at this further, although I thought I had come up with an elegant one relay solution, it has the drawback that the other motors run slowly. The two relay option is needed to get an OEM type function. I've modified the circuit to add them in at each mirror. Apologies for causing you unnecessary work.

Hey Jim,
This awesome! SmileWavy Glad I bought 3 relays at once! No apologies ever necessary; I owe you the hugest debt of gratitude for all of your patience and help with this. I am a complete eletrical dunce, so without your help the car would have undoubtedly burned down by now.
Thank you again Jim and I'll add the new relay this weekend and report out.
Thanks again!
Christian

Hi Christian,

Finally got a sunny day in Sydney so I could have a good look at my loom. After looking at it and comparing it to your description i now think that your loom is correct. I do think that I misunderstood your description. In my wiring diagram I showed the blue and black connected together on the left of the diagram. This connection was an attempt to represent what I thought you were describing. You should not connect these wires together, but rely on the loom. If you have connected them put them back the way they were. I will post a simplified drawing later tonight.

Ok Christian,

Two new schematics. The first one is a repeat of my earlier one with the blue/black connection removed (to avoid confusion). The second is focusing on just the mirrors. On the left is the stock wiring and configuration for the older flag mirrors. On the right is the same wiring modified with a relay to drive the later 944 style dual motor mirrors. I have amended the diagrams with the wire colors and put everything in english (rather than the original SW for black etc).

Hope I haven't lost you in all this! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328348388.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328348404.jpg

Hi Jim,
I got everything together and now it all works perfectly (without a doubt). Thank you again for your time and help; having one less electrical thing not working on the car is a big relief.
I did one thing slightly different than the schematic..out of necessity. And it is probably just because I wasn't seeing it in the schematic right. The black that you have coming into the schematic on the left side, through process of elimination I determined was the common that runs to the passenger. I had to actually hook that up to the blue coming off the toggle on the left hand side, then hooked the two up to the relay. After doing that, everything was perfect.
Thank you again for everything Jim and watch out for me on my next electrical adventure! :confused:
Christian

Hi Christian,

Good find. The black and blue should be connected together. I was trying to avoid inadvertently making you connect them twice so I removed the connection from the last version of the circuit. I was assuming the loom was ok - not always a good assumption with cars that have been messed about.

I too spent much time getting them working and have only adjusted them once in the last two years...but its good to know they work!

Hi Gents, I'm replying to this older link because I have the same issues. I'm completing a restoration on a 79 SC, I have the older joystick and toggle switch, and now have the newer mirror motors. I understand the idea of adding the relay (which is super hard to find these days so if anyone has a link please lmk). But not exactly sure if I understand the diagrams correctly. I know its asking to dig back in, but could someone update the schematics here to label the joystick, the toggle switch, the leads to the mirrors, and the relay please?
Much appreciated,
Marc