Drivers' Ed Questions

[Jgordon]

A couple of questions I was hoping you guys could help me out with -- The first concerns insurance. I've read a couple of posts on the subject, and I was hoping you could give me some feedback.

I spoke to my agent, and explained track days. I made sure to include the following points:

1. Untimed event.

2. On a racetrack.

3. Not state-sponsored defensive driving course, it is private.

4. Privately organized event, wherein instructors get in your car with you and teach you the finer points of driving the car (ie. when to shift, braking, accelerating, turning, etc.)

5. For personal satisfaction, NOT for insurance deduction.

6. May well occur more than once (some of the posts mentioned that if you get smacked once, they'll cover you, but ask you not to do it again).

These seemed to be the relevant points that might get me dinged. Several times through the course of the conversation, he stated "If you're driving the car, and you get in an accident, you're covered." This seems like a go, but I wanted to make sure there isn't some secret handshake word or phrase that I left out. The carrier is Allstate, if anyone has had specific experience. A guy I know told me that regardless of what they said, the claims people at Allstate will make me sue them to recover any damages from a DE.

The second question is: What is the 13/13 rule? I have heard it mentioned several times, and I'm curious.

As always, your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

[zuffenhausen]

Can't help you with the insurance question, but the 13/13 rule is a PCA Club Racing rule and has never applied at any DE I've attended. The following is directly from the PCA Club Racing rules:

2. Conduct which is inappropriate to the intent and spirit of the PCA Club Racing Program, jeopardizes
safety or results in dangerous or damaging situations will not be tolerated. In addition to the normal
discretion of the PCA Club Racing Program stewards to deal with inappropriate and unsafe conduct
during all Club Race sessions, the 13/13 rule will be in effect at all PCA Club Racing Program events
and will be imposed for such conduct. Under this rule, any incident which results in car
damage, will cause the following:
A. The National Stewards will collect and review all information relating to the incident, including
corner worker and other observer reports, driver statements, and damage and incident reports
from the Chief Scrutineer, in order to make a determination of fault.
B. Drivers involved in an incident shall immediately exit the track during the session and report to the
Black Flag Station and then to the 13/13 impound area, as directed. Drivers will then report to
Medical and then to the Steward and shall not be allowed on the track until being cleared by the
Steward.
C. Any driver who is found to be at fault in an incident will be:
1) Excluded from competition for the remainder of the event at which the incident occurs.
2) Placed on probation for a thirteen (13) month period by the Chief Steward. If during this
probation period the driver is involved in another “at fault” incident, his competition
privileges will be suspended for thirteen (13) months. Suspended drivers must petition
for reinstatement to the Race Chairman. Re-entry into the program will be at the
discretion of the National PCA Club Racing Committee and the driver may be required to
return on probation.
3) Subject to more severe penalty should the seriousness of any incident warrant it.
D. Any competitor, after having been in an incident, who fails to immediately exit the track and report
to the Black Flag Station or leaves the event without talking to the Chief Steward, shall be presumed
to be at fault.
E. Any driver who has received a 13/13 must attend the Orientation Meeting at the next race in
which they compete.

Hope that helps.

-zuff

[Jgordon]

Wow. Thank you. I don't think I'm at any sort of club-racing level, so I'll just try to make sure I'm covered at DE's.

[TimT]

J

Ive been active in the metro NY drivers eds program for a number of years now. If you are attending a metro ny DE the 13/13 rule will be in effect, If you make contact with another vehicle (or if you go off and make contact with the wall etc) you will be on probation for 13 months, if within the 13 month probation you make contact again you will be suspended for 13 months i.e. not allowed to participate in the DE program. I know it seems rather draconian, but if youve ever participated in a DE before a club race, thing can get pretty hairy during the DE.

Now on lighter note I havent seen a 13/13 assesed at a DE yet



LOL these things crack me up

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Good lord. Somebody goes out on a racetrack and they want to be insured. Life in these Untied States. Well, what the hell, I guess we all end up chipping in to pay for it...

Stephan

[DANNOV]

Originally posted by Stephan Wilkinson
Good lord. Somebody goes out on a racetrack and they want to be insured. Life in these Untied States. Well, what the hell, I guess we all end up chipping in to pay for it...

Stephan

Just because its on a race track does not mean its a race. I feel safer at a DE event than I do on a Chicago expressway. Yes, you are likely covered by your insurance as long as it is not a timed event.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Of _course_ it's safer. I know that from having done it. The only thing I question is the Great American Ideal of who's gonna pay for it if you f**k up. Life's a risk. If you go out onto a road course, racetrack, call it whatever you want whether it's to play, educate yourself, impress your sig other or scrub in some tires, it should be up to you, not Geico or The Travelers.

Stephan

[DANNOV]

Stephan, I don't follow your logic. A lot of stuff we do in our 911's is "for play" and it is done at high speed. If we screw up and its covered by insurance than we have a right to make the claim. If you promise your insurance company that you will never participate in a DE, or autocross event, or never drive above 65 mph do you honestly think they are going to give you a lower rate? I doubt it. You are buying protection and the insurance company is building all known risks into your premium. They most likely know and assume that a certain number of 911 owners are going to screw up because "they are driving for fun or play" and that is already calculated into the premium you and I pay. I haven't had an accident in 20 years but because I drive a 911 I'm sure I'm paying a higher insurance premium. Let's face it we are a select group and we are paying for it whether we drive "for play" or not.

[JoeF]

Dannov,
I was concerned about insurance for DE events as well! My insurance co. could not provide it either.
My thoughts on having insurance for the DE event had nothing to do finding some one to pay for my f**k up.
JoeF

[JoeF]

Sorry Dannov, I was adressing jgordon.

[orbmedia]

Stephan,

I think you may be backlashing against the wrong thing here. There's nothing Un-American about insurance. You pay a premium to insure against some damages in whatever endeavor you are undertaking - whether it's securing your home against fire or skydiving. An insurance company will insure almost anything. No "entitlements" are implied.

You may be backlashing against insurance fraud or insurance scammers or people who just plain try to get money as an entitlement. For example somebody who fakes an injury and then wants to sue the city or another guy's insurance company.

Other than that I see nothing wrong with inquiring about how to mitigate one's risk through insurance.

[Jgordon]

Stephen, are you telling me you go on the track without insurance? Doesn't seem like the safest way to do it.

In purchasing insurance from a company that allows DE events, I assume I am paying a premium over one that doesn't. Higher risk = higher premiums, and the beauty of the capitalist system is revealed. supply equals demand, and a common price is negotiated.

I'm more concerned that I haven't left myself open for interpretation on what a DE event is. I don't want them to be able to come back and say "we didn't know it was on a track," or something.

Has anyone had specific experience with Allstate?

[gaijinda]

I am sitting at my desk here as an insurance company underwriter and having a good chuckle. The Golden Rule: What is not excluded - is included. Most insurance today is "all risk" with named exclusions. I am with DANNOV on this one. Insurance companies know what you can do with your car, and if they dont exclude "track" events, well so be it.

Look into the pricing of classic car policies, those that exclude track events are cheaper.. So we are just getting what we pay for. The numbers have been worked out, believe me.

Actually, as a "class" I would say your average DE junkie is a better risk than your average p-car owner. They get their speeding done on the track, take better care of their cars and a generally very good drivers.

[71T Targa]

Originally posted by Jgordon

Has anyone had specific experience with Allstate?

I’ve just had that conversation with my Allstate agent.

Me: I’m planning on doing a DE event at BIR. Will I be covered?
Him: Yep. You planning to drive up there?
Me: I think it’ll be a nice drive….
Him: Sounds like fun.
Me: So I’ll be covered on the track?
Him: Yep…

No experience making a claim if something should happen though.

[Superman]

Profit-making insurance companies as a hedge against property loss is something I have always considered a CARICATURE of our "free" enterprise system. I will not even wonder about the insurance question when I D.E. I'm sure every chapter's policies are similarly secure, but I can say that at our DE events, if you put a wheel on the shoulder of the track, you are out of that 'run.' If you do it again, you are done for the day. Just as it should be, there is no joking about safety.

[boyo]

If you're willing to pay the premium, anything can be insured.

Even the "big boys", i.e. F1 and indy racers, carry crash insurance. Granted the premiums are probably $200K per race to cover a $1M race car...

Then again, if you're concerned about immaculate conception you can insure against that too...

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/ninsure.htm

-Boyo