Buying Old vs. Really Old

[OsoMoore]

I'm finishing my master's degree in May and plan to buy a 911 at that time. With my budget of 10-15K, and a penchant for doing my own work, I've mostly settled on an SC: 1978-1983. My intention is to have a daily driver, but I have another car so its OK if it is occasionally in need of work, as long as I can do it mostly myself.

I've read half of the Used 911 Story, and am buying my own copy in a couple weeks, but I am hoping for some advice from those who have had a car for a while. I've seen some cars for sale with 80-90K miles on them, and a few with as much as 180K. Is buying something on the top end a bad idea? The price is lower, obviously, but will I pay for it in worn out things like shocks or other issues?

In summary, is buying a 150K+ car a bad idea solely on the basis of miles, or is it just as likely to be good or bad based on care, just like a shorter mileage car?

[quattrorunner]

15k should buy you a nice sc. I've been looking around and it's a buyers market. You for that money would get an sc with 100k miles with good docs and no rebuild and good upkeep. With 100k there will be some wear and tear but overall pretty good condition and no stories. For that money insist on the paperwork car. Get a PPI.
Even with all this expect some suspension work or brake work needed within the first year. But this said, you may not even have anything needed the first two years. These are great cars and my first sc 4 years ago needed only brake work and it had 180k miles on it. Put 30k on it and it never cost me much at all to own. This is my experience with that car.
The one I'm in now is another story. It had known issues in the engine(2.7) and I bought it for the chassis with intention of a swap to 2.0turbo. I drove the bad engine for 8 months waiting for it to quit but I have up waiting and just pulled it running great and sold it with a pulled stud. Good luck.

[Jim Richards]

Congrats on getting your Master's degree, Oso. Don't be too concerned about the mileage, focus on the maintenance performed (including a good trail of records) from the seller. Look at the condition (is the car properly repaired or band-aided), look for rust, and be sure to get a pre-purchase inspection from an independent Porsche shop. Good luck and I hope you find a great car.

[timchar]

It really depends how well it was taken care of. About six months ago I purchased an 86 with 177 K on it. It had 25 k on a rebuilt motor. Many things were recently gone thru as well ; clutch, transmission, shock/struts, New tires, tie rods and a number of other things. Receipts for all work. Interior/exterior probably 7/10. Runs great, good compression and I have over 181 k on it now. I paid 16,500.00. Most here would run from a car like this. In my opinion, the work that was done warranted the price. I probably could of purchased a car with around 100k miles or maybe even less. But, there aren't many that have had rebuild by then and that's an easy 10 grand or so. Only problem, I was really looking for a grand prix white in color, I couldn't find with similar history so ended up with black. Some regret there. Paint job can cost almost as much as a rebuild. Most will tell you to buy the car with the least amount of miles for the money. Not me, the rebuilds don't seem to get that much of a premium, its very interesting. Good luck in your search and congrats on your masters. Tim

[5String43]

I wonder if the number of miles really matters as much as the amount of work that's been done on the car. I don't think I'd have any problem with a high-mileage car if it came with invoices that proved, at the very least, a top-end rebuild and thorough and regular maintenance.

Many people say they have gotten to 200k miles on their SCs with no need for major mechanical work. That, it seems to me, is a testiment to their good maintenance and the car's great design. But the need for that work will come. So for me, at least, it's probably better to buy a car on which someone has already paid for it, because it sure as heck isn't cheap.

[OsoMoore]

Thanks for the input folks. Based on this, if I see a good price on a higher mileage car, I'll take extra care to figure out what rebuilds have been done, and how complete the documentation has been.

[eauboy]

I have an '85 that came with a long paper trail. It now has 176K, runs like a top, doesn't burn or leak oil, and has never had major engine work.

I asked the same question here before purchasing my car. Documentation + a PPI that checks out is a great combination.

[Lukesportsman]

With an older 911 you'll find them extremely well engineered and therefore a good DIY type car with the exception of the engine. Overall they are marginally any more expensive to work on than say an MGB or BMW, again outside the engine. Interiors, body work is similar to all cars. Rust is better than most domestic by an SC because of galvanized panels. Replacement parts are less than some because aftermarket has helped keep us out of most unobtainium parts like so many vintage cars. BUT the engine can cost as much as another car. SO please make sure that you are comfortable with the drivetrain.

Point being, an ugly duckling with a great drivetrain will cost you MUCH less than a shiny turd. Don't let a beautiful car sway your judgement over the condition of that flat 6. Congrats on education and that should allow you more funds to play with these wonderful little gems.

[gregwils]

I agree with Luke. Take your time and look at more than one or two cars. I would first find a Porsche shop in your area, they may be able to point you to a good car. Generally, these are reliable and durable cars with almost unlimited DIY potential. However, they are still 30 year old performance cars. I spend $1-2k a year on parts- - no labor, just parts. You just need to have enough room in your budget to continue to invest in the car. In return, you will find it to be one of the most fun vehicles to drive that was ever produced.

[fred cook]

I've an SC coupe that I have owned for almost 14 years. In that time, it has only let me down a couple of times and that was due to a bad fuse position on the main fuse panel. For the first 10-11 years I used it as a daily driver all year long. Winter, summer, rain, cold, heat, etc. Then, knowing that it was going to be down for a while for a good paint job, I bought a truck to use part of the time. Over the years I have owned many cars, but none were around anywhere nearly as long as the Porsche. It is a great car, easy to maintain and fun to drive. Since you have another vehicle already, I believe that buying an SC would be a great idea. Before you plunk down your hard earned cash, be certain to have a PPI done. It might cost you a couple hundred dollars, but could save you from buying a troubled vehicle. Good luck and happy hunting!

[porschenut]

Regardless of how well it's been taken care of, age matters, and mileage matters. Why? Many things wear out and eventually fail that are not mentioned in the maintenance book. Don't focus just on the health of the engine. Every component on the car has a limited life. Shocks, suspension bushings, wheel bearings, CV joints, and the list goes on. Gauges need to be rebuilt. Heating and A/C blowers and controllers wear out and fail, as do other electrical gadgets throughout the car. Any high mileage, 30 year old car is going to need most of these things addressed and it is not going to be cheap, even if you do it yourself.

[RWebb]

Focus on the maintenance history of the car, the PPI (done by a mechanic who knows OLD 911s), the lack of rust, and the color you want*. I'd expect the Shocks & CV joints to have been serviced at some point. Find out when. If there are no maint. records, then reduce the price you pay by the amount to do all maintenance.

An SC motor that gets the oil changed on time can go 200,000 to 400,000 miles. The wheel bearings also last a long time on these cars. You/your mechanic can check for play in them.

Plan to replace all the suspension bushings as they don't last, even if the car is not driven.

You will immediately have to do some safety maintenance: replace the rubber brake hoses with new rubber ones; replace the rubber fuel hoses with new rubber ones rated for ethanol mixtures; replace tires if they are more than 6 years old no matter the mileage or tread depth. IF you DIY all the above the parts cost might be ~~$1,000. There are very detailed threads on how to do each item posted here.

After that, just get it back on its regular long term maintenance (use those as search terms here) and drive it.

*A color change is very expensive.

Congrats - and what is your Master's in?

[G450X]

I picked up a high mile (160k) '82 a few years ago, mostly original (good repaint) with an untouched interior/engine/transmission. Only a few minor things are inoperative (front hood light, sunroof is slow), it's great that all the dash lights, switches, defrost, etc., work fine on an old car.

The engine runs too rich on start up, but fine when warm - I probably need a WUR rebuild. I have a few oil leaks, nothing too serious (drips, no puddles). The 915 is a bit hard to get into 2nd at times and 4th whines a bit.

I've rebuilt two of the brake calipers, re-glued the pop-off valve, and had a new key cut (cured a hard start problem).

I've only put around 6k miles on it. I think my car is fairly representative of a 30 year old SC. I plan on a 915 swap (picked up an alleged rebuilt 915, JW will confirm shortly), drive axle, engine seals, WUR, and suspension rebuild, etc., and plan to drive it a few more years while I save for the inevitable costly rebuild.

I'm not sure of your finances, but budget a small car fund for problems that are normal for 30 year old vehicles. A PPI on a very nice car you are very interested in is smart.

It's a buyers market and many SC owners want to "upgrade" to a newer chassis (my previous owner wanted a 964 RSA) and are motivated to sell.

Good Luck, and have fun in the quest!

[porwolf]

I would first of all consider the R-U-S-T situation! Nothing more frustrating and outrageously costly for a buyer who is not an experienced and a very patient welder, to deal with it. Porsche made great progress with galvanizing their bodies, I think, after 1967. But that is not an absolute guarantee against rust. It still depends how long and how the car was exposed to salty winter roads conditions or to high humidity, like in Hawaii, it was exposed to. Therefore it is important to know, over its life, where it has been, and whether it was garaged. Fixing mechanical shortcomings are much less expensive to deal with. They can be handled, in a lot of cases, by the owners themselves. Ask me how I know! I owned, as daily drivers, a 62 356 between 1968 and 1969, a 65 912 from 1970 to 1971, a 1968 911T from 1971 to 1973, a 1872 911T from 1973 to 1979, and finally a new 1979SC Targa until now! Also, I would go for an SC, 1978 on up, although not perfect, because of their 'bomb-proof' engines and very smooth, they perform very well on the road. Their torque curves are wider and more balanced than earlier models.

[Dave Colangelo]

I have a 78SC Targa, used it as my DD all summer and it was AWESOME. Just remember these cars take a bit more work to up keep than other cars. If you are willing to, and understand that you will have to, do it you will never be able to replace the experience, joy, and flat out fun of owning a Porsche. I have been DDing P-cars since high school, first a 924s that was borderline functional, that graduated to my good shape 911SC with 140K on it. Im now looking for a 944 as my college beater for the time being. You will find out fast that these cars become some what of an obsession.

Any way, rust is important to look for. Even though these cars were galvanized there are parts that can rust out.
Also look at the suspension bushings, motor mounts, struts, ball joints, and sway bar bushings and sway bars.

For 15k you may be able to snag a nice Carrera the prices are climbing on those as of late from what I have seen, but they still can be had for 15ish.

This forum is one of the best resources you will have in your P-Car ownership.

What is your masters in??

Regards
Dave

[OsoMoore]

Thanks everyone for all the input. Right now I am beginning my search, but don't expect to make a purchase until I graduate in May (unless something stellar shows up).

I'm hopeful that, if I locate a promising prospect out of driving range, I might find a helpful pelican to take a quick look at it before I have a PPI done. Rust free, pass PPI, and good docs appear to be the trifecta of criteria.

Originally Posted by Dave Colangelo

What is your masters in??

I'm completing my master's in Computer Science at UW-Milwaukee. I've done graphics programming since I was a kid, and my thesis is in data visualization from simulations.

[porwolf]

Working a littel bit on the hardware of an older Porsche woud be a perfect balance to all the software acrobatics. And a good body execise to boot.

[mholbrook38]

My 79 is such a joy to work on. Kind of a Zen-like experience. And when you get it right and get yourself in sync with the car in driving and learning the idiosyncrasies, you will then really know what I am talking about. The Carrera is very similar. Buy a good example and then go through every system to be sure it is up to snuff. Then go forth and enjoy.

[TWOZTER]

Snagged my '85 Carrera Targa with 135k and a ton of paperwork for $15.5K. They are out there for sure...

[telemachus]

FWIW - Excellence has a story this month on a '76 930 with over 600miles. Obviously this is on the extreme end of the curve but it does illustrate the possibilities. With that thrown out there I would say porschenut has a point too and it really is a balance care/mile. Every P-car has its story.