78' 911 Sc

[Acharch]

is a 78' 911 SC W/ 88K miles a good deal for $9,000. I am a Porsche virgin. What should I check.

[RazorRacer]

I just purchased a 78 Targa with 63,000 miles. It is in mint condition. Always garage kept, all instruments work, engine runs great, and it doesn't leak oil. The engine should be rebuilt after 60,000 miles, so I am expecting to put some money into that. [This statement is wrong (see threads below)] I paid $15,000 for it and am glad I have it. You can see a photo at www.homestead.com/razorracer.

Needless to say $9000 sounds like a bargin if it's in good condition. Plan to have the valves adjusted every 10,000 miles. I am hoping to do that myself, but still don't know what talent it takes. Can you post a photo?

[autobonrun]

If it only requires standard future maintenance, and the body is in good shape with no rust, the answer is yes. Even if some reasonable repairs are necessary, $9k still sounds like a good price.

Have it checked by a mechanic, including compression ratios.

Look for short cut repairs that may have been made.

Check that it has not been wrecked.

Since you are new to 911s and may not immediately do repairs
yourself, set aside $1,000 or so for the unexpected.

Estimate how much mileage is left on the tires. You're looking at $600 to $800 if these need replacement.

See if a pop-off valve has been added to the air box. If not have this done right away. Pop off valve is around $50 excluding labor to install.

You will either want to add a mechanical stop to the chain tensioners or replace with pressure fed system (mechanical stop is less expensive and mine has been on for 16 years) if this has not been done.

If possible, drive 3 or 4 others and compare how this one feels.

Then write the check!

[makaio]

Razor, why are you planning a re-build @ 60,000 miles? These motors will go a lot further than that.

[78silversc]

Razor
I too am curious about your comment
"The engine should be rebuilt after 60,000 miles"
My 78SC has 117,000 miles and (although it has been well taken care of mechanically and has chain tensioner and air box pop off valve updates) has not been rebuilt. I just spoke to a mechanic with many years of experience with these cars and he said expectations of 250,000 to 300,000 miles are not unrealistic as long as proper maintenance is done.
Now.... rust? That's another subject!

In terms of what you should have checked...
I recently had a good experience contacting a local PCA rep for information...it was regarding body / restoration work on my 78SC but they are very helpful and could give you some recommendations for shops in your area that will perform an in-depth PPI.

[stormcrow]

Check out this site. It has all the information you will need to do a pre purchase inspection. Pelican Parts has it all.

Steve


http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_prepurchase/911_prepurchase.htm

[MarkY]

Originally posted by RazorRacer
The engine should be rebuilt after 60,000 miles, so I am expecting to put some money into that

You sound like you're talking about a timing chain for some Toyota or Nissian. How in the world do you arrive at this conclusion?

[emcon5]

I am also curious where the 60K mile rebuild number came from.

There is a great article by Bruce Anderson that used to be available on porsche-classifieds.com. That page seems to be dead, but luckily Google has it cached here. You should read the whole thing, the prices are a little off, because it is an older article, but the information is good.

Here is what Mr Anderson says about reliability of 911 SC's.

The 911SCs have proven to be extremely reliable cars, I have told a story for several year about a friend of mine who I was using as my endurance test for these extremely reliable cars. One night a few years of years ago he phoned me and said that he had some bad news and that the reliability test was over and that he had missed a shift in a hill climb and bent all of the exhaust valves at 222,000 miles and he was going to have to rebuild the engine. Then he said that the good news was that he took top time of day in the hill climb. I had also been keeping track of a couple of other 911SCs that I felt had fairly high mileage so I checked in with them and have continued to keep track of one of these cars through a friend who has a shop that maintains a really high mileage 911SC. I checked with my friend about a month ago and his customers 911SC now has 330,000 miles on it with no major engine work, the heads have never been of this engine

An important thing to look for that is not mentioned in his article is broken head studs. Some of the lower head studs have been breaking, and when you get your pre-purchase inspection, have the mechanic check and retorque them. It will probably cost you a little bit more for the PPI, but could save you $1000's if one is broken and you don't find out till later.

Tom

[RazorRacer]

My bad. I just recently purchased the 78, but I have been reading about it for months. I took this quote out of context, and failed to validate it after I purchased the 78.

"The 2.7 liter 911s also have a problem with pulling cylinder-head studs. Unfortunately this is a difficult problem for a prospective buyer to assess when looking at used cars. If a 2.7 911 has more than 60,000 miles, it probably has had some major engine work performed to repair the worn valve guides." [Porshce 911 Performance Handbook]

Hence, my incorrect statement about the 3.0 78 Porsche. On the brighter side, I have some extra cash in my pocket to do other things than rebuild my 78 engine!

[hilandscott]

Although price is no correlate of condition, I would be skeptical of such a low price SC.

I purchased my $9100 '78 SC last year as the PO seemed very motivated, and he had paid for a recent paint job and new interior carpet ($3-4K in the last three years he said). And this was on top of a recent complete rebuild within last 8K miles. Mind you I got no proof of this as he was moving and wasn't organized enough to have it handy. The car started fine, seemed to have good power, and had good compression numbers. Within 100 miles it self destructed: the PO had paid for (if his story is true) a crook to reassemble the original bearings in bottom end (and a few key parts incorrectly, like the spring that controls oil pressure was in backwards). The mechanic was a crook, and perhaps the PO knew something was up before selling.

When I was looking I found for a 911 I found one for $10,5K and that seemed a running car in bad paint and interior shape. That made sense to me, but such are rare. Why would anyone whohas taken care of their P-car want to unload it for thousands less than it is worth... unless they really had to!

Just my two cents.

[Jdub]

I own a '78: it may be the most common SC ever built if it's a Targa!

On the '78 there were a batch of bad valve springs in the early cars. My car, at 130K, has one off cylinder (rings) and a top-end rebuild was performed when the PO blew the top end valve gear at a DE.

Great car. Most early SCs are not saddled with the electric windows. electric ant., and extra passenger mirror. Clean, light, and the 3.0; how can you lose?

All the usual suspects apply: balky trans should be checked, etc. Remember on the '78 that the dist. pinion gear is a different pitch than later models of SC (just tuck that one away), the sump could use an upgrade to the "bowler" style, the oil pressure relief valves and springs should be updated, and of course the pressure-fed tensioners and the pop-off valve are a must.

For $9,000.00 it seems OK, but you must have this PPI'd by a pro who can cover what you don't know. These are not inexpensive cars to own especially for those who don't wrench their own.

Good luck. Read EVERYTHING you can lay your hands on.

John

EDIT: As a datapoint, I paid $5,500.00 for this car. Abandoned in the first-level garage where I work by a wealthy gentleman who had let it get tattered. Thought #1 was full dead, but just needed rings loosened from lands by way of several hard Techron runs. I was very lucky, and the car does have dents where a thief tried to get into the trunk. But ALL of the upgrades where there, right out the to the pressure valve/springs, sport susp. etc. Don't let price dissuade you, study everything, save money, and then act. Also remember that you get your best deals in the Fall and Winter.

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Jdub
you must have this PPI'd by a pro who can cover what you don't know. These are not inexpensive cars to own especially for those who don't wrench their own

That bears repeating.

Also, as hilandscott can attest, if there are no receipts or documentation, you should assume it never happened.

Tom

[Aurel]

The price seems low, but who knows ? I paid my 78 SC Targa $11300 with 93 Kmiles on it, without maintenace records. The body-paint is in perfect shape, the interior is very clean (apparently, the P.O. recovered the leather tan seats). On the engine side, it runs well and strong. Uses some oil, but I don`t know if it is because of the leaks on the oil lines or the engine itself. On the downside, the differential is noisy at low rpms, and the syncros are a bit worn, but still do their job. I have a pop-off valve, but no carrera tensioners. Only major expense has been replacing the clutch so far. I have owned the car for one year now, and it has proven to be reliable. I guess I have what I paid for, and made a good deal, but I got somewhat lucky. Here are some tips before you purchase the car : have it lifted and check for oil leaks, as well as any play in the wheel bearings and suspension. Look at the tires too, they can be worn on the inside.Look for rust, there should not be any. Test drive it until the engine is hot (20 minutes at least). Look at the oil pressure, oil temp and oil level needles. Temp should not rise higher than middle on a cool day, pressure follows rpms. When it is hot, do not hesitate to push in second gear till it hits the rev limiter. If it is a happy engine, it will go there before you realize it ! Do fast shifting from 1st to 2nd, and check for grinding or difficulty to shift. Also, look a how the engine responds on high gear-low rpms. This will tell you about the torque, and transmission noises. Once you feel the car is really good, have a mechanic inspect it and do a compression test. Also, if you can find one, try a $15000 or more 78-83 SC in reputed perfect shape, see how it feels.
In conclusion, spend the bucks on a mechanic to make sure that the engine is a good one. I did not do that, I got lucky, but for $9000, that would be pushing your luck even more !

Aurel
78 SC Targa